Yep, this discussion again [Skill Drain]

[Lonk]

 

Exactly why wasn't this card limited in the TCG list yet?  It's poorly designed in the aspect of horribly shifting balance within a game.  I could see that it is @3 to preserve anti-meta Decks, but it's still a stupid card to face against, and shall always remain as my arch-nemesis in my playtime of the game.

[ihop]

My views on Skill Drain, and cards like Skill Drain in the sense that they hit a major part of a deck e.g. Decree, Mistake etc is that they all should be limited, as they basically say "you can't play yugioh". It's no fun being a Gadget player when Skill Drain is out, waiting to draw into MST, and it's not fun being a Spellbook player when Mistake is out etc. I would also put Deck Dev in that category. Limits of Macro, Fissure, Soul Drain and EEV are a step in the right direction IMO.

[Zauls]

Pretty much what iHop said. These cards are degenerate and don't promote skill and take away the fun of the game. The fact that one card can stop entire decks demotes resourcefulness as you can just go "flip this gg" to stop your opponent's plays.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Yugioh players seem to be under the illusion that the only good way to play a game is to have everyone be proactive all the time. This is a card that stops that and is a great thing because of that.

[D.A._Sakuyamon]

I'm going to have to agree with Chris <-<

 

Cards like this help prevent mindless "No Interaction +s" from happening. And in my book that's a good thing. 

 

I could see it going to 2 though.

[玄魔の王]

My views on Skill Drain, and cards like Skill Drain in the sense that they hit a major part of a deck e.g. Decree, Mistake etc is that they all should be limited, as they basically say "you can't play yugioh". It's no fun being a Gadget player when Skill Drain is out, waiting to draw into MST, and it's not fun being a Spellbook player when Mistake is out etc. I would also put Deck Dev in that category. Limits of Macro, Fissure, Soul Drain and EEV are a step in the right direction IMO.

-Plays Gadgets
-Worries about fun

Skill Drain prevents field-based OTKs from going off, and shuts down annoying lock monsters like Yamato and Ophion (if only for a little while).

[Lonk]

-Plays Gadgets
-Worries about fun

Skill Drain prevents field-based OTKs from going off, and shuts down annoying lock monsters like Yamato and Ophion (if only for a little while).

 

-Implying that Yamato locks

 

You're funny.  Also, Veilers, Fiendish Chains and Skill Breakthroughs are better designed because they aren't a wincon in a single card like Skill Drain is.

[Goose]

The only time this card is really degenerate is against Monster Mash, but I can't imagine Monster Mash actually being good for the game anyway.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

-Implying that Yamato locks
 
You're funny.  Also, Veilers, Fiendish Chains and Skill Breakthroughs are better designed because they aren't a wincon in a single card like Skill Drain is.

How is it a win con in a single card? And even if you can prove that, isn't that just yugioh in general?

Either way, Skill Drain rewards deck building and punishes players who don't prepare for it. How is that even remotely a bad thing? Sorry you can't just mindlessly play this game and cards like this actually give some semblance of interaction.

[玄魔の王]

-Implying that Yamato locks

 

You're funny. 

 

Thank you, I'd like to think I'm an entertainer. Yeah, poor choice of words on my part, but Yamato.dek annoys most people I think.

 

Also, Veilers, Fiendish Chains and Skill Breakthroughs are better designed because they aren't a wincon in a single card like Skill Drain is.

 

Go up against any deck that OTKs, and tell me how effective those actually are. Skill Drain hates on decks that are overly reliant on Monster Effects to accomplish anything. Like the aforementioned Gadgets. Is it the best-designed card in the game? No. But it's one of those necessary evils because far worse evils exist.

[Goose]

How is it a win con in a single card? And even if you can prove that, isn't that just yugioh in general?

Either way, Skill Drain rewards deck building and punishes players who don't prepare for it. How is that even remotely a bad thing? Sorry you can't just mindlessly play this game and cards like this actually give some semblance of interaction.

 

I think the most important thing is that this card requires you to adapt.  Most decks you can make the same combos against and play the same way against.  They might have a trap that negates a summon, or a veiler that blocks an effect, but in general it's the same.  When Skill Drain is played against you, you need to adapt your strategy

[Lonk]

How is it a win con in a single card? And even if you can prove that, isn't that just yugioh in general?

Either way, Skill Drain rewards deck building and punishes players who don't prepare for it. How is that even remotely a bad thing? Sorry you can't just mindlessly play this game and cards like this actually give some semblance of interaction.

 

So yugioh is just a crapsack game then?  Also, as I stated before, it provides dramatic shifts in gamestates that rewards the user while punishing the opponent simultaneously.  I have no problem with reward and punishment objectives, but having the two concepts simultaneously together on a single card verges on bad design that causes the opponent to desperately need to luck out on a single card to stop it.

 

@ 幻魔の王

 

So you are justifying Skill Drain's existence because of other poorly-designed concepts?  And Veiler actually DOES stop OTKs if used correctly and timed properly, and it can lead to wins.  Unless if your opponent knows that they'll win, Maxx "C" can cause opponents to [b]think[/b] before they act.  They would only Summon enough to stablize their field, not summon anything else in preparation for the worst, or just continue summoning because they know that they'll win.  Fiendish Chain does its job well, and Bujins are fun to face-off against and play with.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

So yugioh is just a crapsack game then?  Also, as I stated before, it provides dramatic shifts in gamestates that rewards the user while punishing the opponent simultaneously.  I have no problem with reward and punishment objectives, but having the two concepts simultaneously together on a single card verges on bad design that causes the opponent to desperately need to luck out on a single card to stop it.

Well yes yugioh is a crapsack of a game. Didn't you figure that out yet? People play yugioh because of that, not because its skill intensive or anything. Sure there are little nuances and plays that reward the more skilled player, but the depth certainly isn't there. Again, it's not like other cards don't do that. I summon Hyperion. Suddenly I have a 2700 beater that punishes my opponent for having cards on the field. Should we get rid of Hyperion too? Heck, lets get rid of Bottomless Trap Hole. I get a free removal on your monster and you just lost your monster in a giant tempo swing. Fucking hell Book of Moon can make just as big a change to the game state and a lot of people want that unlimited for whatever reason.

I think the most important thing is that this card requires you to adapt.  Most decks you can make the same combos against and play the same way against.  They might have a trap that negates a summon, or a veiler that blocks an effect, but in general it's the same.  When Skill Drain is played against you, you need to adapt your strategy

I hope you agree that this isn't a negative thing.

[Goose]

I totally agree.

[Toffee.]

Book of Moon can make just as big a change to the game state and a lot of people want that unlimited for whatever reason.

My guess is people view it as harmless, because it doesn't exactly remove monsters from the field, compared to something like Torrential.
But at the same time, it, you know, prevents an Extra Deck Summon, protects monsters from stuff, laughs at monsters that need to get their effects off right away, etc, etc.
So it's not so much that it can be viewed as balanced, but rather, it just does too much all by itself.
....Or something like that.

[Lonk]

Well yes yugioh is a crapsack of a game. Didn't you figure that out yet? People play yugioh because of that, not because its skill intensive or anything. Sure there are little nuances and plays that reward the more skilled player, but the depth certainly isn't there. Again, it's not like other cards don't do that. I summon Hyperion. Suddenly I have a 2700 beater that punishes my opponent for having cards on the field. Should we get rid of Hyperion too? Heck, lets get rid of Bottomless Trap Hole. I get a free removal on your monster and you just lost your monster in a giant tempo swing. Fucking hell Book of Moon can make just as big a change to the game state and a lot of people want that unlimited for whatever reason.

 

I actually wouldn't mind seeing Hyperion going away.  BTH and Moon are alright though, since they can be gamechangers if used properly and do much of nothing in the hands of unskilled players.  Only difference between those two cards you listed and Skill Drain is that Skill Drain doesn't require much thought going into it.  You just flip it and say 'gg' if your opponent doesn't have MST, and a good number of Decks wouldn't be able to adapt to a sudden surprise Skill Drain because of the whole formula of 'your opponent loses their advantage while you gain more advantage or lose nothing off of it.'  It has a theoretically similar principle to Monster Control Shift cards, since your opponent loses their monster and you gain their monster.

[玄魔の王]

Well yes yugioh is a crapsack of a game. Didn't you figure that out yet? People play yugioh because of that, not because its skill intensive or anything. Sure there are little nuances and plays that reward the more skilled player, but the depth certainly isn't there. Again, it's not like other cards don't do that. I summon Hyperion. Suddenly I have a 2700 beater that punishes my opponent for having cards on the field. Should we get rid of Hyperion too? Heck, lets get rid of Bottomless Trap Hole. I get a free removal on your monster and you just lost your monster in a giant tempo swing. Fucking hell Book of Moon can make just as big a change to the game state and a lot of people want that unlimited for whatever reason.

Hyperion isn't the best example, but I agree with your message.

I hope you agree that this isn't a negative thing.

He does, I'm certain.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

"Do nothing in the hands of unskilled players."

Whereas you state that Skill Drain does.

Ok, 2 things:

Have you ever fucking used Skill Drain before?

Barely anything in this game takes skill so your statement is useless.


Clearly building your deck around Skill Drain means you just mindlessly used it. Seriously what fucking logic is that?

[Lonk]

"Do nothing in the hands of unskilled players."

Whereas you state that Skill Drain does.

Ok, 2 things:

Have you ever fucking used Skill Drain before?

Barely anything in this game takes skill so your statement is useless.


Clearly building your deck around Skill Drain means you just mindlessly used it. Seriously what fucking logic is that?

 

1)  I have, and it made me feel disgusted with using it.

 

2)  I don't know, using one thing at the right time does impact how a game will go versus using one thing at a horrible time.

 

3 (That's three things actually) It can be mindlessly used in a Deck built around it because the player won't suffer any repercussions for using it at any time possible.  The only difference between playing this card mindlessly and skillfully is if your opponent minuses themselves at the cost of a card.  Otherwise, there really isn't much point to thinking of using Skill Drain, especially if the player using it knows they'll win if they get it off as soon as possible.

[:^)]

Every card is broken, ban everything.

 

Someone used Spirit Reapers eff and randomly chose the card I needed to OTK so it should be forbidden.

 

Honestly it does slow down the game and makes it last longer but it serves its purpose in Anti-Meta decks.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

1. I don't give two shits about how you feel using Skill Drain. If you've used it at all it's very clear where the thought is present, especially with most decks playing 3 MSTs.

2. Sure, maybe on a small subset of cards. But most good cards are very simple to use and can pretty much be used whenever. Stop pretending there's a real skill to this game.

3. (Yeah I made a typo, well spotted!) Do you not know what the term mindless means? The deck is built around it. Let that sink in for a bit, for fuck's sake.

[Aerion Brightflame]

To make this less embarrassing:

 

You can't mindlessly use Skill Drain when you built the deck around it, because you actually had to think enough to make the deck in the first place. I assume that's what Chris means.

 

Skill Drain is good for the game, Chris outlined most of the reasons, but I'd like to add on: It makes people actually think more. When you know your opponent is using Drain, you should logically start being smarter and instead of using MST for blind pops, save it for when you need it.

 

Also I still find the idea of skill being in the game for the large part laughable.

[:^)]

 

We've been having this same discussion for over two years, and people's opinions of it have only gone down, do we really need to keep bringing this card back?

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Just because a discussion has been had doesn't mean it cannot be re-done. Opinions change, as do how relevant a card is. Given it's also the start of a format, it's where Skill Drain is at its best. It's a card where it's best at the beginning of a format, and when a format's been solved.

Also not everyone (myself included) actually participated in any of those thread, so it's even moreso irrelevant.

[Goose]

 

We've been having this same discussion for over two years, and people's opinions of it have only gone down, do we really need to keep bringing this card back?

 

There are only so many cards in yugioh and of those cards only a small fraction have a mechanic that is worth discussing.  If you don't want to discuss yugioh cards find a different forum.