Yep, this discussion again [Skill Drain]

[Miror B]

Why steer a format on assumptions and not hard data?

Would work better on paper if the makers playtested stuff before they released it.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Honestly, would not play testing from Konami either make the card underpowered or even stronger? I say winging it isn't terrible once you've been at it for years. But still, some cards do crap, and some don't. And when you have like 4500+ cards, thinking of every card isn't easy, even for the players.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Well even then you can't playtest everything and oversights would occur. Again hard data is strictly superior to assumptions that could be wrong. It's a lot easier to see a problem arise when millions of players are trying to break the game, as opposed to a few playtesters.

[玄魔の王]

Again, this doesn't actually occur with cards like Skill Drain anyway, it is physically impossible for it to be a dominant card. And bad card design doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the format, frankly.

Card creation philosophy on this very website doesn't really agree with that premise. When cards are being unfavourably compared to Hikokubo, it's time to gives things a long hard thought.

 

Yes, Konami knows nothing. Which is why their banlists come from significant data collection over literally thousands of games.

Even then, they still miss problem cards. Doing the right thing will always come second to sales, which is why Rulers got a second format to be dominant.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Card creation philosophy on this site is a load of horse shit.

[vla1ne]

Yes, Konami knows nothing. Which is why their banlists come from significant data collection over literally thousands of games.

Again, this doesn't actually occur with cards like Skill Drain anyway, it is physically impossible for it to be a dominant card. And bad card design doesn't matter if it doesn't affect the format, frankly.

Even if bad design might not affect the format, why would you wait until the format that it does start harming the meta to stop it? I'm not necessarily talking about skill drain, but if you can tell that a card is going to harm the next format due to bad wording/design, then why wouldn't you act to prevent it? (I know konami's in it for the money, but from a strictly player based mindset, that logic makes no sense.)

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

How do you know it's going to become a problem when a format hasn't had a chance to flesh out?

[玄魔の王]

How do you know it's going to become a problem when a format hasn't had a chance to flesh out?

You don't have to know for certain, more likely it's just operating on whether or not it should be allowed to reach that point.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Operating on uncertainty is just beyond stupid. Seriously, give a real reason as to why changes to the forbidden list should happen without a thorough testing period.

[Miror B]

Even then, they still miss problem cards. Doing the right thing will always come second to sales, which is why Rulers got a second format to be dominant.

This happens with a lot of players too. Good or bad.

Hell I said hit WU Hunter and WUs will be nothing more than mini xyz spam that can't put too much power on the board.

Now look what happened when they actually hit the spam card.

[玄魔の王]

This happens with a lot of players too. Good or bad.

Hell I said hit WU Hunter and WUs will be nothing more than mini xyz spam that can't put too much power on the board.

Now look what happened when they actually hit the spam card.

The hit one of the spam cards. Magician was still a thing. Once they hit them both they devastated the deck, but the deck was nothing but glorified Xyz Fodder, which is a terrible way to design a deck. Cards in the main should be capable of functioning without relying on the extra deck to that extent.

[Miror B]

The hit one of the spam cards. Magician was still a thing. Once they hit them both they devastated the deck, but the deck was nothing but glorified Xyz Fodder, which is a terrible way to design a deck. Cards in the main should be capable of functioning without relying on the extra deck to that extent.

You completely missed my point.

[vla1ne]

If cards obviously have design flaws (brionac being both easy to summon and able to hit more than once per turn) then they should be hit as soon as possible. maybe not preemptively, but as soon as feasibly possible.

[玄魔の王]

You completely missed my point.

Which was that, that players' motives are no more pure than Konami's?

[Miror B]

Which was that, that players' motives are no more pure than Konami's?

 

This happens with a lot of players too. Good or bad.

The very first sentence of the post you quoted. That was the point.

[玄魔の王]

The very first sentence of the post you quoted. That was the point.

Except that was in response to me pointing out that Konami does not really care what the lists are, so long as it boosts sales.

[Miror B]

Except that was in response to me pointing out that Konami does not really care what the lists are, so long as it boosts sales.

You also had the sentence "Except they still miss problem cards".

[Sleepy]

Much of the fault on Skill Drain comes from how Yugioh doesn't arm many decks for the right answers to those weaknesses. 

There's also that while it is truth that playing around something in X situation is often possible, sometimes that initial push with said unfavorable situation is just too heavy to recover in time. There's also that the owner of Skill Drain also will be prepared to defend it more than the way you'll probably be prepared to take it out, and cards in combinations are just stupid at times.

 

A while ago, I got to play a Synchron deck and started facing off a Necrovalley + Skill Drain + Barbaros + Malefic Cyber End.

Needless to say, I didn't draw MST and and the deck theme was completely sealed.

I'm not saying that the above combo will be the next meta deck to beat, but just saying, situations where you don't have the time to play around anything, and where you just can't play your theme at all, are not so uncommon. That's the usual thing with Skill Drain.

 

 

That said, just how I said it in my first paragraph, Skill Drain could stop being a problem at all if a good enough answer that was more reliable than drawing into MST existed, and it could happen without Skill Drain having to move anywhere.

 

I'm not even talking about "impact on the meta" but for the sake of a good experience, which is ultimately what Skill Drain tends to hurt (since we all know it's not exactly top of anything at tournaments).

[玄魔の王]

You also had the sentence "Except they still miss problem cards".

Miss as in fail to include, not fail to notice. Y'know, 'miss'. In the same sense that guy 'accidentally' parked in your spot.

[Miror B]

Miss as in fail to include, not fail to notice. Y'know, 'miss'. In the same sense that guy 'accidentally' parked in your spot.

Miss was a bad way to word it then.

[玄魔の王]

Miss was a bad way to word it then.

If you asked a Konami exec why X card was left off the list, they'd say they missed them. That's why I said it that way.

[Lonk]

If a card has very exploitable design, then why wait for when it becomes exploited to hit it?  Being reactive, while it does have its positives, also has several negatives associated with it.  Like in any Deck: set-up and design are very important for general situations.  It's true that Skill Drain is a card that falls out of loop from time to time.  However, it's problem is that it has a very exploitable, slippery-slope design and is always in the heat of exploding.  The day this card gets a consistent searcher will be the day that it will see permanent list attention.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

It's not exploitable design. I don't even see how you reach that point. Again, the closest you get to actually proving such a thing goes back to just whining about opponents having good reactive cards, which Skill Drain is.

How is it slippery-slope design?

It's the only card like itself that people complain about and it's been around since the very early years of the game. Your argument literally defeats itself.

[Miror B]

Guys, many cards have exploitable design
Junk Syncron and Debris Dragon
Dandylion and Mist Valley Falcon
Heraldic Leo and Stratos
Goblin Zombie and Sangan
Gol'Gar and Treeborn

All of these have potential to be abused.

[Lonk]

It's not exploitable design. I don't even see how you reach that point. Again, the closest you get to actually proving such a thing goes back to just whining about opponents having good reactive cards, which Skill Drain is.

How is it slippery-slope design?

It's the only card like itself that people complain about and it's been around since the very early years of the game. Your argument literally defeats itself.

 

It's a slippery-slope in the context of helping out the user while, simultaneously hurting the opponent.  Monsters that would be natural beaters if it were not for their effects would not have to worry about them, there are a plethora of monsters that can dodge Skill Drain, and against Decks that need to have their monster effects resolve on the field due to their design absolutely die with this card.  Even if the player does draw into something like MST, drawing it at the right time remains a problem, and drawing it too late would already spell a loss for that player just because they didn't draw the card during the critical points of the duel.  The worst part is that Decks that run Skill Drain would be assisted by other problematic traps and forms of protection that would render the attempt of rewarding the player for interaction moot.

 

Also, a card like this must have a good reason of complaints if people complain this long.  It's not like the philosophy of top-tier Decks that, once power creep settles in then people would stop complaining about it.