Sleepy Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Sinister_Serpent During your Standby Phase, if this card is in your Graveyard: You can return it to your hand. I know this has been deemed pretty bad as a concept for the game since forever. The arguments I've seen in favor in the past have been: -Mermails arguably have better fodder. -Why is it so bad that generic "discard 1" cards get this if archetypes already pretend they have costs? Though, regardless on if you agree or disagree with the above arguments, we have a new feature to talk about here: Pendulum Summons will arrive pretty soon to the game, and as you all probably already know, there is a point in the Duel they'll just start popping out of the Extra Deck every turn for no real cost, in multiples. So suddenly this card's returning cost is probably gonna be laughable in comparison. What do you people think? The time for this to be legal again is soon to come, or do you think Pendulums will not be that good as to compare this card's fodder potential to them? In my opinion Synchro/Tribute fodder every turn from the Extra Deck, with extra effects that give you more BS in your plays, and actual offensive stats directly to the field sounds way more powerful, but only time will really tell. Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synchronized Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Honestly don't think it would do much of anything outside of seeing play simply because "it's Sinister Serpent". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 It could come back and wouldn't have too much of an impact, even if Mermails are still a thing (hopefully they get hit though). It will be used a bit more than Tsukuyomi and MoF but that's because they are never used whatsoever. Some decks will enjoy the fodder, but it won't break anything by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sinister coming back won't happen until Mermails and Frogs get hit. It lets you plus for free off Teus and it's searchable off Pike, as well as giving free Synchros with Fishborg Archer every turn by skipping your Battle Phase. On a lesser note it lets you Swap Frog once a turn for free, which isn't really all that bad but the Fishborg situation is still an issue, especially in Lancer Frogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutrality Man Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Oh my Ra! it's a free star for Synchros! And Rituals! and Tributes! And a designated victim for all my "discard 1" costs! This card is amazing! Ahh!! Really, while this can do all of the above... there are many cards in those decks that already do its job in those decks better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suibon Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 I don't care how bad the game gets -- if in 6 years (or six months, because Konami) every competitive deck is better, faster, and stronger than Dragon Rulers -- we need not be carried by the current of 'everything's shit anyway -- why not more? no one gives a fuck'. It's still a once-a-turn cost-dodger. The end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zauls Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 It's still a once-a-turn cost-dodger. The end. You say that, but is it really? If you splash it into any deck, then most of the time it will have no synergy and will just serve as nothing but discard fodder. The cost is having a useless Level 1 thing in your hand rather than a card that actually does something. Obviously in some decks Serpent can be used for other things, but it still won't break anything by any means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suibon Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 You say that, but is it really? If you splash it into any deck, then most of the time it will have no synergy and will just serve as nothing but discard fodder. The cost is having a useless Level 1 thing in your hand rather than a card that actually does something. Obviously in some decks Serpent can be used for other things, but it still won't break anything by any means. Quickdraw variants can have fun with this if it were in multiples and in slow formats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neochu-H Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 this card will never come back... EVAR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted March 7, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sinister coming back won't happen until Mermails and Frogs get hit. It lets you plus for free off Teus and it's searchable off Pike, as well as giving free Synchros with Fishborg Archer every turn by skipping your Battle Phase. On a lesser note it lets you Swap Frog once a turn for free, which isn't really all that bad but the Fishborg situation is still an issue, especially in Lancer Frogs. Sinister won't really give you an immediate plus in Frogs, and you'd probably rather have something to banish for Ronintoadin when it comes to testing so it'd be more of a tech than anything else, and skipping your Battle Phase still sounds fair to me for the Synchro use with Fishborg Archer. I don't care how bad the game gets -- if in 6 years (or six months, because Konami) every competitive deck is better, faster, and stronger than Dragon Rulers -- we need not be carried by the current of 'everything's s*** anyway -- why not more? no one gives a f***'. It's still a once-a-turn cost-dodger. The end. You could have said the same about other previously banned cards that are not there anymore, and the game has plenty of cost-dodgers, only they are archetype-specific so you only get to do it if Konami makes your deck. Not to mention cost-dodging isn't always a problem necessarily. No one complains about the unlimited Atlanteans, which are better for WATER than Serpent is. There's finally that Pendulum Summon will most likely outclass this card in pluses, and that's something I can tell just from the core mechanic without even seeing future Pendulum cards. The one thing that might prevent that is if Pendulums stay the way they are in regards to how quickly a player can complete the arc and start bringing out other Pendulum Monsters with them, as opposed to how Sinister is more quick to start rolling where it's used. Which Pendulums will for sure not stay still like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Maindeck Lightning Vortex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Murphy ☆ Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 this card will never come back... EVAR This is a lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog King Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Actually this would be like the 2nd best thing to discard in Mermails, Dragoons being the first of course, so as long as Mermails are a decent deck I wouldnt really want this coming back :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Actually this would be like the 2nd best thing to discard in Mermails, Dragoons being the first of course, so as long as Mermails are a decent deck I wouldnt really want this coming back :/ This can stand true as of right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agro Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Honestly, it doesn't matter if this card is used or not. It's still a degenerate card effect that doesn't even deserve to be in the game. Unfortunately, Konami does not prescribe to that ideology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neutrality Man Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 If given the choice between Sinister Serpent being permanently at 3, and the current meta... I'd take the Serpents, honestly. "Degenerate card effect" or not, there's nothing really game-breaking you can do with them anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Sinister won't really give you an immediate plus in Frogs, and you'd probably rather have something to banish for Ronintoadin when it comes to testing so it'd be more of a tech than anything else, and skipping your Battle Phase still sounds fair to me for the Synchro use with Fishborg Archer. It DOES give a consistent immediate plus in Frogs off Swap. It also makes your Tidal that much more live in hand. It also gives Mermails an extra +1 on every card they play and opens up retarded rank 6/7 recovery through Archer in your second main phase. Also it's not merely skipping your Battle Phase, you only destroy non-Waters. You can still blow up the field with a Black Rose and continue making plays off Teus and Pike to re-establish field presence, and you can always drop it in your second main phase as a recovery tactic after running into mass removal. Serpent doesn't help every deck the way it did 10-11 years ago, rather it provides a disproportionately powerful discard engine to one already tier deck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted March 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It DOES give a consistent immediate plus in Frogs off Swap. Waiting a turn is not that immediate, and you can't use that Serpent for Ronintoadin fodder like you most likely could with other discards. It also makes your Tidal that much more live in hand. Dragon Rulers are also questionable on their own. It also gives Mermails an extra +1 on every card they play and opens up retarded rank 6/7 recovery through Archer in your second main phase. Atlanteans can't? Also it's not merely skipping your Battle Phase, you only destroy non-Waters. You can still blow up the field with a Black Rose and continue making plays off Teus and Pike to re-establish field presence, and you can always drop it in your second main phase as a recovery tactic after running into mass removal. I have to confess I can't argue on this point without further investigation. Serpent doesn't help every deck the way it did 10-11 years ago, rather it provides a disproportionately powerful discard engine to one already tier deck. As of right now that's true. You are missing how this thread is trying to predict the future, and Pendulums look like they'll be Sinister Serpent x10000, and that Mermails will most likely not be as much of a big tier by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 The thing about Serpent is the advantage it gives is not only delayed, but rather specific in its use. You get to return it to hand. 'Kay, then what? It does work like Treeborn, so you can pay Maintenance Costs with it in the Standby and then reclaim it again, but who runs that kind of maintenance cost? As for Mermails, assuming they stick around for a while, they're a very explosive deck that can end the game quickly, and they have much better things to discard that provide immediate advantage or setup. What Serpent CAN do is basically give a free first-turn search with Pike or teus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog King Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 It DOES give a consistent immediate plus in Frogs off Swap. Waiting a turn is not that immediate, and you can't use that Serpent for Ronintoadin fodder like you most likely could with other discards. It also makes your Tidal that much more live in hand. Dragon Rulers are also questionable on their own. It also gives Mermails an extra +1 on every card they play and opens up retarded rank 6/7 recovery through Archer in your second main phase. Atlanteans can't? Also it's not merely skipping your Battle Phase, you only destroy non-Waters. You can still blow up the field with a Black Rose and continue making plays off Teus and Pike to re-establish field presence, and you can always drop it in your second main phase as a recovery tactic after running into mass removal. I have to confess I can't argue on this point without further investigation. Serpent doesn't help every deck the way it did 10-11 years ago, rather it provides a disproportionately powerful discard engine to one already tier deck. As of right now that's true. You are missing how this thread is trying to predict the future, and Pendulums look like they'll be Sinister Serpent x10000, and that Mermails will most likely not be as much of a big tier by then. Atlanteans aren't a +1 and this is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Atlanteans aren't a +1 and this is... Given the only way Serpent is going to the Graveyard in this deck is if you ditch it for cost (you could mill it with Tidal, but that's really bad), there is effectively no difference between an Atlantean and Serpent in terms of how they generate advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog King Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Given the only way Serpent is going to the Graveyard in this deck is if you ditch it for cost (you could mill it with Tidal, but that's really bad), there is effectively no difference between an Atlantean and Serpent in terms of how they generate advantage. Undine. anddd Serpent is still a +1 every turn once in grave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
玄魔の王 Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Undine. anddd Serpent is still a +1 every turn once in grave The Undine Build is bad though. Also, Undine triggers Atlanteans anyway so that's a moot point. And it being a +1 each turn hardly matters when the game is only 2-3 turns anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dog King Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 The Undine Build is bad though. Also, Undine triggers Atlanteans anyway so that's a moot point. And it being a +1 each turn hardly matters when the game is only 2-3 turns anyway. Wow thats like saying CED-EOTE would be bad if it came back because no one uses it this format???? And so not true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maeriberii Haan Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Undine Engine is baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad due to controller being craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap when drawn. OT: I want to see how well it fares at 1. Not much reasoning other than why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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