Exodia the Forbidden One

[玄魔の王]

Since we're talking about old cards and future ban lists, I thought I'd add this guy...

 

 

This is arguably one of the worst-designed cards in the game. Not because it's a win condition, those can be very tasteful and flavourful. It's because said win condition comes from assembling 5 cards in your hand, which means building a deck around it consists of "run a ton of draw cards and possibly a bunch of stall cards". 

 

There are two major variants of it, and neither of them are fun to play against. The FTK version is basically "Open Library? GG", while Deep Draw actually requires time investment, but makes up for it by using Swift Scarecrow and the like to wall. Both of these completely run against player-player interaction.

 

Also, it's been pointed out before that a good sign of bad design is if it puts other cards on the list just by existing. I think this is the only individual card that inherently limits 4 other cards, and certainly the only card to limit Normal Monsters.

 

So, should we finally bid this guy farewell? Let's hear your thoughts.

[CLG Klavier]

It's way too known to be Banned. It's basically YGO's poster boy.

[Spinny]

Yeah this will always sacrifice the well-being of other cards before its own.

[~British Soul~]

inb4Ban the head and unlimit the limbs OR ban the left leg.

 

OT: As much as we all want it banned, it's not making the relevant impact sadly.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Konami goes with impact over design. Exodia doesn't win WCS, so it clearly is ok for the game.

[Sleepy]

I have a theory that the reason it is so annoying in casuals but cannot really beat big tournaments is that no typical deck is designed to fight against Exodia's way of playing, but in competitive games the side deck exists, and although it is not particularly sided against, some options that are used against other decks sometimes happen to help.

So Exodia will always be terrible in the game, but not relevant enough in competitive, due to this strange phenomenon.

 

 

 

In another topic, I can't quite decide if mindless draw effects aren't also to blame. They are certainly not broken on their own, but when there's enough to build a deck around that sole idea, and there is a goal like this to reinforce it, that might be an issue on itself. It is not even necessarily drawing that gives you extra advantage, just drawing that lets you run through the deck fast.... and Exodia doesn't have to be the only possible goal for that style, it is just the most glaring one (even though I can't name examples right now, they could and might exist). 

 

Though of course, Exodia also has itself to blame. 

The idea of having to limit non-Tuner Normal Monsters with terrible stats is hilarious but wrong. If even Normal Monsters have to be at 1 for this just to exist, then the wrong card(s) is being hit in the wrong way.

[werewolfjedi]

I have a theory that the reason it is so annoying in casuals but cannot really beat big tournaments is that no typical deck is designed to fight against Exodia's way of playing, but in competitive games the side deck exists, and although it is not particularly sided against, some options that are used against other decks sometimes happen to help.

So Exodia will always be terrible in the game, but not relevant enough in competitive, due to this strange phenomenon.

 

 

 

In another topic, I can't quite decide if mindless draw effects aren't also to blame. They are certainly not broken on their own, but when there's enough to build a deck around that sole idea, and there is a goal like this to reinforce it, that might be an issue on itself. It is not even necessarily drawing that gives you extra advantage, just drawing that lets you run through the deck fast.... and Exodia doesn't have to be the only possible goal for that style, it is just the most glaring one (even though I can't name examples right now, they could and might exist). 

 

Though of course, Exodia also has itself to blame. 

The idea of having to limit non-Tuner Normal Monsters with terrible stats is hilarious but wrong. If even Normal Monsters have to be at 1 for this just to exist, then the wrong card(s) is being hit in the wrong way.

 

actually that's a good point there in the middle.

what if konami keeps it out as a limited set so that if anyone can make an unbeatable exodia deck, they know they need to start bringing the limits on draw power?

as an example, I'm sure they took a look at that exodia deck that did half decent back in the insector worlds.

[evilfusion]

The Forbidden One has yet to be Forbidden.

 

I like Exodia as a concept, with the win condition for assembling them, but only in a purely conceptual form. Playing the Deck is boring as hell to me, and playing against the Deck is just a mad struggle to beat the stalling. Which I once did by Summoning Neo Galaxy-Eyes.

[Goose]

It's bad design because IT IS alt win condition. I can't think of any that are good design.

[CLG Klavier]

I swear to fucking god if I see the word "design" once more.

 

Cards aren't banned because of bad design. They're banned because of impact. There are bad designed cards that are bad. Like Exodia. This is perfectly fine @1. This deck will never top.

 

Now stop acting like a goddamn Konami R&D. The constant spam of the word "design" makes it annoying and worthless.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I swear to f***ing god if I see the word "design" once more.
 
Cards aren't banned because of bad design. They're banned because of impact. There are bad designed cards that are bad. Like Exodia. This is perfectly fine @1. This deck will never top.
 
Now stop acting like a goddamn Konami R&D. The constant spam of the word "design" makes it annoying and worthless.

This is basically what I was saying a year ago. I got yelled at. This time around, I said the same thing, but sarcastically. This is a game, should it not be fun?

[Goose]

This is basically what I was saying a year ago. I got yelled at. This time around, I said the same thing, but sarcastically. This is a game, should it not be fun?

 

If you're playing at a tournament, all that's relevant is what decks you can or cant beat.  Competitive play has fun as secondary to winning (largely because fun is derived from winning).  If you aren't playing at a sanctioned tournament you can make the rules up yourself.

[CLG Klavier]

Banlists exist STRICTLY AND ONLY for competitive play.

 

If you're playing casually with friends, you can just agree on them that no one uses Exodia. That's what playgroups are for - custom rules so everyone enjoys the game.

 

Goddamnit.

[~British Soul~]

It's bad design because IT IS alt win condition. I can't think of any that are good design.

Vennominaga springs to mind here because it requires player interaction to pull off.

[evilfusion]

Vennominaga springs to mind here because it requires player interaction to pull off.

 

Vennominaga is hilarious, because of how useless the alt-win is.

 

Vennominaga is extremely hard to Summon because you can't use Rise of the Snake Deity if Vennominon dies by battle, and to make Vennominaga powerful, you need a lot of Graveyard Reptiles. You're more likely to win by turning your opponent's LP to 0 than you are by inflicting Battle Damage 3 times without Vennominaga being destroyed by battle, but still not winning.

 

Still more fair than the anime version, which said 3 turns after Vennominaga inflicts damage, you win.

[~British Soul~]

Vennominaga is hilarious, because of how useless the alt-win is.

 

Vennominaga is extremely hard to Summon because you can't use Rise of the Snake Deity if Vennominon dies by battle, and to make Vennominaga powerful, you need a lot of Graveyard Reptiles. You're more likely to win by turning your opponent's LP to 0 than you are by inflicting Battle Damage 3 times without Vennominaga being destroyed by battle, but still not winning.

 

Still more fair than the anime version, which said 3 turns after Vennominaga inflicts damage, you win.

That is true, you definitely are more likely to win normally rather than through its alt win.

[werewolfjedi]

Vennominaga is hilarious, because of how useless the alt-win is.

 

Vennominaga is extremely hard to Summon because you can't use Rise of the Snake Deity if Vennominon dies by battle, and to make Vennominaga powerful, you need a lot of Graveyard Reptiles. You're more likely to win by turning your opponent's LP to 0 than you are by inflicting Battle Damage 3 times without Vennominaga being destroyed by battle, but still not winning.

 

Still more fair than the anime version, which said 3 turns after Vennominaga inflicts damage, you win.

at least it's not one of those stupid cards in the very first pack wasn't it, where it was " if this monster battles another monster, kill it in 5 turns" all of them with pitiful ATK and DEF. I think there were 3 of them out there? that swordsman, zone eater, and a scorpion. killed a blue eyes with one of them once

[Sleepy]

at least it's not one of those stupid cards in the very first pack wasn't it, where it was " if this monster battles another monster, kill it in 5 turns" all of them with pitiful ATK and DEF. I think there were 3 of them out there? that swordsman, zone eater, and a scorpion. killed a blue eyes with one of them once

 

Yeah Zone Eater took and the Swordsman from a Foreign Land took like 5 turns each. On the bright side, it was either player's turns, but I think it didn't count the turn where the battle happened, so it'd end during your own 2nd End Phase most often.

The Steel Scorpion was cooler. Opponent's 2nd End Phase, so you wouldn't need to have it sit there through your turn, but because it only counted opponent's turns, it's pretty much just 1 turn faster than the above ones.

 

Yomi Ship was amazing compared to them. I wish we had had Broken Blocker back in the day way before the Synchro era, because the idea of Yomi Ship killing the monster that killed it and you getting 2 more out sounds like a cool play.

 

Then we have Shadoll Dragon today, and I wouldn't be surprised if soon we get a sort of "D.D. Man-Eater Bug" FLIP Effect (if you know what I mean).