Trying to balance Normal with Special~

[Sleepy]

This derived from that other thread that talks about resource systems for Yugioh. The most notable resource system in Yugioh IMO is the Normal Summon, but as time goes on, it becomes more of a thing to just not care for built-in limitations from the game's mechanics, and just have built-in limitations for each archetype instead, like how Ritual Beasts can only be Special Summoned once per turn each for example.

 

An idea I had:

-Now you can make a second Normal Summon/Set per turn.

-You are now allowed to make no more than 2 Special Summons per turn. This includes both inherent and non-inherent.

-Inherent Summon mechanics (Xyz and Synchro) can now be treated as using up either a Normal or a Special Summon.

 

The above rules are counting times, not number of monsters, so cards like Scapegoat are still a single Summon usage.

Also, I'd like to pretend Pendulums are not a thing for this because frankly I don't know how they'd be affected by this power-wise compared to the rest of the game.

 

Benefits:

This is meant to help Normal Summon in general to be more relevant, to have Tribute Summons come in faster to compete with the rest of the game (especially double Tribute requirements and above).

It also is supposed to weaken the impact of Special Summon locks, which would still have SOME impact, but not "you cannot play" impact necessarily.

As a collateral bonus, those who have the opinion that something like Lonefire is stupid design, now it demands using up your now counted Special Summons of the turn in order to go Lonefire for Lonefire, so it wouldn't really happen..

Issues:
-Quite a few Synchro strategies need several Summons per turn to pull off their combos, and this is most likely gonna severely hurt them as they currently are.

-Ritual Beasts might also be severely weakened, just like a ton of other decks in specific. I mean, it is SUPPOSED to tone down the game to a degree, but I am saying some decks are weakened to unplayable degrees due to the insane amount of Summons they need to do something.

-Now getting a field wipe is an issue because if you have used up all your Summons, you are a sitting duck regardless of how many Summoning effects you have. I'm not entirely sure but something tells me this is a big issue.

 

Soooooo:

The idea is obviously not fully calibrated here yet. So the exact number on each Summon cap is completely debatable, especially because of the "Issues" category. So feedback is more than welcome. Tell me if you think at least the concept could go somewhere, if it would be too complicated, if it would feel unnatural for the game, or whatever thoughts and/or suggestions you might have.

IMO: The mechanics were originally fine when starting from zero, but one thing is mechanics on their own and another is mechanics plus the longest list of cards that bypass their terms....

 

You can also talk about how you'd tackle Summons in this game, or if you feel everything IRL is fine the way it is.

I had heard several years ago someone say that 5 Special Summons per turn were a reasonable deal. I wonder if the number would have upped by now.

[Darj]

I like the idea.

At some point, I also wondered if a new ruling that locked both players to ~4 Special Summons per turn would be good for the game or not. Think of a "Summon Limit" that was always in effect by ruling. Your alternative or reducing Special Summons but increasing Normal Summons is much more appealing.

 

Regarding the issues:

Issues:
-Quite a few Synchro strategies need several Summons per turn to pull off their combos, and this is most likely gonna severely hurt them as they currently are.

-Ritual Beasts might also be severely weakened, just like a ton of other decks in specific. I mean, it is SUPPOSED to tone down the game to a degree, but I am saying some decks are weakened to unplayable degrees due to the insane amount of Summons they need to do something.

-Now getting a field wipe is an issue because if you have used up all your Summons, you are a sitting duck regardless of how many Summoning effects you have. I'm not entirely sure but something tells me this is a big issue.

 

 

1 and 2: Yeah, combo decks that need multiple Summons to end with a blast/OTK will surely be hurt with this, while decks such as RBs that heavily rely on Special Summons would become practically unplayable.

I think a solution could be to increase the number of Summons allowed, just enough for combo decks to effectively drop their combos, and for Special-Summon decks to remain playable; 5~6 Summons (2 Normal Summons, the rest Special Summons) sounds reasonable for me but I don't know if more would be needed.

 

3: After raising the Special Summon limit, I don't think this will be that much of an issue. Besides, if your overextend by spending your Summons during your turn and you are punished afterwards with a nuke, then I would say it was your mistake.

[goodfusion]

This idea seems pretty interesting. I wonder how it would affect my Psychic-Type deck that I use most of the time? To be honest, although it is pretty much a "Synchro spam" deck it would still be ok, as I could do stuff like this:

 

Emergency Teleport something (1 SS)

Tribute it for Overdrive Teleporter (1 SS, 1 NS)

Use its effect to summon 2 level 3s (2 SS, 1 NS)

Normal Summon another level 3 (2 SS, 2 NS)

Use Brain Research Lab's effect to allow me another Normal Summon, so I Normal Summon Overmind Archfiend with my 3 level 3s (2 SS, 3 NS)

 

Because of the Special Summon limit, I think cards such as Call of the Haunted that allowed you to Summon in your opponent's turn would be used a lot more often, as it leaves your turn free for more summons.

[Spinny]

Actually makes you think about how you summon, 10/10 I support this format.

[Sleepy]

I like the idea.

At some point, I also wondered if a new ruling that locked both players to ~4 Special Summons per turn would be good for the game or not. Think of a "Summon Limit" that was always in effect by ruling. Your alternative or reducing Special Summons but increasing Normal Summons is much more appealing.

 

Regarding the issues:

 

 

1 and 2: Yeah, combo decks that need multiple Summons to end with a blast/OTK will surely be hurt with this, while decks such as RBs that heavily rely on Special Summons would become practically unplayable.

I think a solution could be to increase the number of Summons allowed, just enough for combo decks to effectively drop their combos, and for Special-Summon decks to remain playable; 5~6 Summons (2 Normal Summons, the rest Special Summons) sounds reasonable for me but I don't know if more would be needed.

 

3: After raising the Special Summon limit, I don't think this will be that much of an issue. Besides, if your overextend by spending your Summons during your turn and you are punished afterwards with a nuke, then I would say it was your mistake.

 

 

What do you think of a 3/3 ratio?

I find that 2/2 comes in a tiny little bit short for some decks, but I am also trying not to make the amount big enough that it becomes meaningless.

Issue #3 would probably be fixed by upping from 2/2 a little. 

2/4 also sounds good. Would have liked it for both sides to be the same, but it is also a plausible idea. I'd like to hear comments about this =D

 

 

This idea seems pretty interesting. I wonder how it would affect my Psychic-Type deck that I use most of the time? To be honest, although it is pretty much a "Synchro spam" deck it would still be ok, as I could do stuff like this:

 

Emergency Teleport something (1 SS)

Tribute it for Overdrive Teleporter (1 SS, 1 NS)

Use its effect to summon 2 level 3s (2 SS, 1 NS)

Normal Summon another level 3 (2 SS, 2 NS)

Use Brain Research Lab's effect to allow me another Normal Summon, so I Normal Summon Overmind Archfiend with my 3 level 3s (2 SS, 3 NS)

 

Because of the Special Summon limit, I think cards such as Call of the Haunted that allowed you to Summon in your opponent's turn would be used a lot more often, as it leaves your turn free for more summons.

 

Glad to hear of an example of a heavy combo-based Synchro deck doing well under these rules. That means the restrictions might not be as tight as I thought they'd be.

 

 

Actually makes you think about how you summon, 10/10 I support this format.

 

Thank you.

[PowerlinX]

This is definitely an interesting idea. I think it helps to prevent many older decks becoming obsolete due to power creep. 

[MoonlitTempest]

Mmmm maybe you can have like uhh..

Kind of like Hearthstone, where the mana increases each turn for that player. What if the Special Summon count increased?

EX:

Turn 1 Player A can SS 1 monster and Normal Summon twice that turn

Turn 1 of Player B can do the same

 

Then Turn 2, Player A can SS 2 monsters and Normal Summon twice that turn

 

Then it reaches a set cap you want for the Special Summoning. I don't know if that's a good idea since I'm bad at these things xD

[Blake]

 

(fluffal dog because stratos is banned)

 

All of these make this an inherently bad idea. I mean, yeah, YGO's broken as shit, but an extra normal summon is stupid, too =T

[Darj]

That's true. I was thinking about this lately and realized that, while x2 Normal Summons could boost Tribute Summon decks and other slower decks, it also boost dangerous ones such as Qlips (who sometimes go as far as to run their Field just for that extra Normal Summon) and the aforementioned Gadgets. But to be fair, in this topic Pendulums are being excluded, and Qlips are Pendulums.

 

Hmm, actually, supporting Gadgets may not be that crazy in my opinion. Gadgets are not doing anything in the meta right now, and these new mechanics may give them a chance of becoming relevant again. Of course, allowing more decks to get at the level of the current top tiers is not a healthy idea, but hey, that's the powercreep for us. Plus it is loyal to the goal of this mechanic: making more decks relevant, and unfortunately it takes crazy stuff to do so.

[Sleepy]

 

(fluffal dog because stratos is banned)

 

All of these make this an inherently bad idea. I mean, yeah, YGO's broken as shit, but an extra normal summon is stupid, too =T

 

Remember that from the OP I didn't just give a second Normal Summon to the game but also limited Special Summons.

 

I just came from looking up All out Attacks loops since I had forgotten exactly what it was. I pretty much only found combos with the Morphing Jars and that requires an undefined amount of Special Summons to keep going. So unless you mean another different loop, the cap took care of that. I did state "inherent and non-inherent alike" so a move that'd Summon past the cap by effects would either not Summon anything or be illegal. The Jars are banned and due to their loopy nature they are more likely to come back with an errata of a hard OPT clause if they do knowing what Konami has been doing lately.

 

In the case of Stratos, I'm not entirely sure but I think he is one of a kind. All other similar archetype effects post-Stratos have been written in a way that doesn't allow them to search for themselves. So I imagine those other searchers would just become a quick Extra Deck boss or Tribute Summon, which for once seems about on pair with them outside of Monarchs, and either way that'd be about half of the turn's Summons so the player is about able to make a power play through these but won't get a big swarm within a turn (most of the time....)

Yes HERO decks really want their Stratos back and it being able to search for itself would probably cause it to stay on the list. That would be bad for HEROs but not sure if on the bigger picture it'd actually be more bad than good for the game in general.

 

Armageddon Knight, Mathematician, Kuribandit would have more impact... Yeah Foolish Burial-like effects have always caused a big impact one way or another, you yourself called out Lavalval Chain a while ago iirc. They are already dangerous consistency and setup tools as is. 
I'm not sure though how much more of a highlight they would be taking into account the OP's hypothetical rules. I guess there IS the chance at least one could/would become ridiculous, but can't think specifically on what play other than the stupid speed of Kuribandit..... hmmm...

 

 

 

To be honest, from the reply I'm making I kind of get the vibe you were just pointing out to the second Normal Summon out of the 3 rules and weren't taking into account the other 2, but I've seen enough of your posts over the years to know it is much more likely that I'm missing a few very important points on what you are trying to point out here.... so this reply is just in response to what I assume your worries are on this.

[Blake]

I used all out attacks as a picture of gadgets. That's all.

Magileine also beats your stratos point.

I'm not ignoring the other changes, but the NS rule alone is degenerate. Giving any stratos, arma Knight, etc. The means to have a built in double summon is plain broken. Worse than Yugioh is now? Debatable, but the idea is flawed.

This rule is also broken in regards to Gemini, as it means you trade in not overextending to get a (usually) strong effect, factoring good geminis against bad ones. That's a terrible game design. And speeding up tributes isn't a good thing, as you just make the Monarchs much more generically splashable.

These rules also leave Shaddolls untouched, bar Chaos Dolls. You can slow roll all day without drawback while taking likes as you go.

Not to mention cards like Yosenju or Hunders, which just shit on this change and get stronger for it.

Limiting special summons does not make a card like Magileine (shoulda used her, but grabbed the first I thought of) fair with the NS rule. "I normal Magileine, repeat, make a rank 4"... You could make an engine of 3 of her and another level 4 madolche and you have 2 free R4s.

And that's barring things like Raidraptors just shifting from Vanishing spam to tribute/Armageddon knight basis.

Nekroz don't care much, either. If anything, this would make them happier more than more sad, as they get more Sen/Manju and ArmaKnight off. Plus the ability to shift what type of ED summon you seems absurd, considering you dodge anti-special summoning, as well as get value out of a card like Lavalval chain that you normal summoned.

The normal summon real is so incredibly idealistic, but an awful idea beyond the very beginning. Normal Summons/sets are an extremely valuable resource to most decks, so increasing the number of them has an adverse effect on the game, especially when you did not limit searching, dumping, etc., and then that turns into a full overhaul.

[Sleepy]

I used all out attacks as a picture of gadgets. That's all.

Magileine also beats your stratos point.

I'm not ignoring the other changes, but the NS rule alone is degenerate. Giving any stratos, arma Knight, etc. The means to have a built in double summon is plain broken. Worse than Yugioh is now? Debatable, but the idea is flawed.

This rule is also broken in regards to Gemini, as it means you trade in not overextending to get a (usually) strong effect, factoring good geminis against bad ones. That's a terrible game design. And speeding up tributes isn't a good thing, as you just make the Monarchs much more generically splashable.

These rules also leave Shaddolls untouched, bar Chaos Dolls. You can slow roll all day without drawback while taking likes as you go.

Not to mention cards like Yosenju or Hunders, which just shit on this change and get stronger for it.

Limiting special summons does not make a card like Magileine (shoulda used her, but grabbed the first I thought of) fair with the NS rule. "I normal Magileine, repeat, make a rank 4"... You could make an engine of 3 of her and another level 4 madolche and you have 2 free R4s.

And that's barring things like Raidraptors just shifting from Vanishing spam to tribute/Armageddon knight basis.

Nekroz don't care much, either. If anything, this would make them happier more than more sad, as they get more Sen/Manju and ArmaKnight off. Plus the ability to shift what type of ED summon you seems absurd, considering you dodge anti-special summoning, as well as get value out of a card like Lavalval chain that you normal summoned.

The normal summon real is so incredibly idealistic, but an awful idea beyond the very beginning. Normal Summons/sets are an extremely valuable resource to most decks, so increasing the number of them has an adverse effect on the game, especially when you did not limit searching, dumping, etc., and then that turns into a full overhaul.

 

 

Ok I'm finally not half-dead tired. Time to answer...

 

Oh, Gadgets, that's an intentional boost for them.

 

Magileine, why would Konami do that? =(
Point taken here.

 

Giving those Arma Knights and Stratos-like effects a Double Summon would be powerful, but yeah it is debatable if it'd be worse than current IRL game or not, and to be honest this whole idea is not meant to be ideal but a way to patch some things and since it is bound to break something else much like any other idea for a change of pace format ever posted, it is mostly that: a change of pace as long as specific problems like Stratos and Foolish effects are not specifically dealt with.

 

Gemini trading over-extension for a strong effect doesn't really look inherently flawed to me, though I can see there would be problems. For example Gigaplant would be a Scrap Golem for all Plants, which currently wouldn't break anything but I can see it hurting future designing. 

Splashable Monarchs is the elephant in the room here. Their being splashable doesn't guarantee they'll be a problem inherently: That is the kind of thing that in my humble opinion would need actual testing to find out, and no other Tributes in the game are nearly as much of a potential problem.

 

Yosenju and Hunders: This is meant to give a boost to many lower decks out there so we'd really have to answer, how much stronger exactly? Obviously extra Normal Summon mechanics have an edge here, and I confess I have no experience with Hunders other than knowing they extra Normal Summon themselves. So I can't properly defend this one.

 

It is inherent that Fusions and Rituals have an easier time using less Summons than Xyzs and Synchros, the latter of these having drawn the short end of the stick here. So Shadolls and Nekroz are still functional. That doesn't sound too bad because I did not mean to kill down decks with this.

 

I have no idea how RaidRaptors play like. I've seen them in the anime but I wouldn't be surprised to find out they can do much more IRL. Wouldn't this format hurt their first boss's effect though? Or is that Xyz that gains the ATK of Special Summoned monsters not really used IRL? I know they've been getting more Xyzs but haven't really seen them.

That said, is that shift you are talking about something that'd break them or just being different in their playstyle? because shifts don't inherently sound bad to me by themselves.

 

 

 

Shifting the focus on decks and making some decks stronger than they are IRL are unavoidable outcomes that don't necessarily mean everything that is different will break. I know having too many decks on the map is awful for the competitive game because of Side Deck and tech choices getting more meaningless the more it grows, in that sense I can see why the idea wouldn't be a good one.

 

From all of these, the Stratos-like effects are the biggest issue here, particularly the few ones that can search out themselves. The other issues range from "slightly less critical but still important" to "that being an issue is debatable". Though I agree, that IS a problem, and a pretty big one even if it ended up being the only noticeable one in practice.....

 

I of course wouldn't keep adding rules to patch things up, that'd be terrible. The "Chance Format" started dying for me when the issues it had started being patched up with what would eventually become around 6 different lists and telling us to grab X different amounts of each list. I would not want to repeat something like that.

Then getting erratas if I had the power to do that would also not be such a good idea. I'm not really all that fond of them to begin with.

So I guess eventually this would lead to needing a custom banlist, sigh....  that's not too simple either, but it'd be the one real alternative....