Konami why [Judgement of the Lightsworn]

[CLG Klavier]

I thought I'd be mad... in fact, I was. I was absolutely livid that this card even existed. This is a tremendous waste of cardboard, and serves to be nothing but a blatant example of Konmoney's attempt to continuous whore out this wretched archetype for what it's worth. But, you know what? That's fine. That's bloody fine. Because, this card will never be what the Rulers were. If some shitty scrubs who can't put together two brain cells long enough to play anything aside from Lightsworn, that's f***ing fine. This card will never be what the Rulers were, and not even Minerva will change that. All this card is, is yet another pitiful sack card on top of an already large pile of sack cards. If you want main this, good job. You just made your deck worse off now, because all this does is prevent you from milling recklessly. So, go ahead, run this waste of cardboard, because Lightsworn will never be the same without the Rulers. If you sack a win because of this card... good for you, I hope the idea that you won only because you got lucky keeps you warm at night.

[Expelsword]

You play Lightsworn BECAUSE you want to sack the win out of nowhere.

It's anime-esque. That's probably why it's popular, if it's not that all the cards are dirt cheap now.

[Toffee.]

I mentioned some of this to Risa earlier, but still.

The problem with this card is that it's only adding to the problem, and not actually fixing it. Maiden Minerva was a step in the right direction because it would grab JD if you played the whole Archetype. So you were rewarded for staying in theme/flavor/etc. However, that card wound up being irrelevant because Sworns as a whole don't want to present any effort and just expect everything to be handed to them, because they get lucky. This card is doing what Minerva was trying to do, but going about it in a completely negative perspective because it's rewarding luck and not proving to be an intelegent card design. Which is why people(even me) have an issue with this card. It's not broken, it's just an awful idea; rewarding luck is NEVER a fair thing. Especially if it's one-sided.

[goodfusion]

 rewarding luck is NEVER a fair thing.

 

But surely a deck that may be powerful but relies on luck to use is overall better design than a deck that is equally powerful but super consistent? As in wouldn't it be a worse design if the effect was simply "Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your hand"?

[evilfusion]

I will credit the Lightsworn Structure for making Lightsworn ridiculously accessible (buying 3 of the Deck gave you an almost literally completely functional LS Deck, including Lumina, Lyla, JD, etc, etc, etc).

 

And the Deck is theoretically fun to play with, if only for how much stupid stuff you can do with it.

 

But I wouldn't run this in Lightsworn, because it doesn't do anything on its own. If you draw it, you have to Set it purely to put it back on top. And unless you Set a Ryko, you're not usually going to mill this during your opponent's turn, so you either need Raiden or something on-hand already to mill this, or you'll need to wait until your End Phase.

 

Honestly, I never have much trouble getting JD (or multiples) in hand. And I'm more likely to run Beckoning Lights to recover milled JDs or other goodies than run this.

 

So the real problem with this card is that Konami is essentially acknowledging that Lightsworn want nothing more than to throw a ton of cards in the Graveyard because they have precisely one thematic boss that wins the game for them by doing so.

 

I like other, non-JD bosses in Lightsworn. I don't find Lightsworn threatening because of JD alone. I find them threatening because they can run half a dozen OTHER incredibly dangerous boss monsters to the point where you're unlikely to be able to counter them all. Things like Lightray Diabolos, BLS, Chaos Sorcerer, JD, hell even Sephylon. And it's easy to bait out removal and counters with these bosses, because they're ALL scary and dangerous if left unchecked.

 

That's not even counting that Lightsworn have access to some extremely formidable Xyz and Synchros thanks to their Tuners. They don't NEED to search JD. They have an incredible arsenal, and this card actually doesn't directly help them.

[Blake]

But surely a deck that may be powerful but relies on luck to use is overall better design than a deck that is equally powerful but super consistent? As in wouldn't it be a worse design if the effect was simply "Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your hand"?

I'd much rather consistency.

 

Like, if you remove Trishula and Djinn Releaser from Nekroz... They're not a problem. At all. And neither of those cards have anything to do with the consistency.

 

Your latter half makes no sense as you're making it a completely different card that would be even worse, arguably.

[goodfusion]

I'd much rather consistency.

 

Like, if you remove Trishula and Djinn Releaser from Nekroz... They're not a problem. At all. And neither of those cards have anything to do with the consistency.

 

Your latter half makes no sense as you're making it a completely different card that would be even worse, arguably.

 

I don't really understand your point. Supposing you have 2 EQUALLY powerful decks, but 1 relies on luck to win games and the other is very consistent so you can win many more games (the comparisons I am trying to make is Lightsworns currently which are pretty luck reliant and then the same Lightsworns but with some cards that meant they were very consistent) surely the luck-based one is fairer?

 

And about your last point, I meant if the effect was easier to activate, like this:

 

1) Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your Hand"

2) If this card is sent from the Deck to the Graveyard: Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your hand"

[Blake]

I don't really understand your point. Supposing you have 2 EQUALLY powerful decks, but 1 relies on luck to win games and the other is very consistent so you can win many more games (the comparisons I am trying to make is Lightsworns currently which are pretty luck reliant and then the same Lightsworns but with some cards that meant they were very consistent) surely the luck-based one is fairer?

 

And about your last point, I meant if the effect was easier to activate, like this:

 

1) Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your Hand"

2) If this card is sent from the Deck to the Graveyard: Add 1 "Judgement Dragon" from your Deck to your hand"

How the hell would that be better?

 

I'd rather play against Nekroz sans Trish/Releaser than Lightsworn any day.

 

It's not more fair to have a deck that only wins when it gets lucky, because that promotes less skill. I'm not calling Nekroz skillful, but at least I know what to expect, as opposed to "hurrdurr i sacked into the answers I need". And with the expectancy there, you have more chances to outplay realistic scenarios.

 

... then that would just be dumb and not be the same card at all, not comparable in the least ._.

[Toffee.]

Sworns- Toss a coin: Heads, you win. Tails, you loose.
Nekroz- Toolbox whole deck: Win upon proper setup that's easily achieved.

The difference is HUGE.

[evilfusion]

How the hell would that be better?

 

... then that would just be dumb and not be the same card at all, not comparable in the least ._.

 

I'm not sure if you fully understood what he was suggesting. He was suggesting either the Trap can be activated to add Judgment Dragon and has no on-mill effect (so you must draw, Set, and activate it)...OR it searches JD if sent from the Deck by any means (instead of just by Lightsworn cards), but presumably still returns to the Deck if activated.

 

Or, at least I think those were the tweak ideas. The way he wrote it looked like it had both those effects, but I doubt that was the case.

 

No matter. Consistency is a big thing. The only way Lightsworn can truly be consistent is either they run way too many cards that work when milled or in the Graveyard, or they start being able to mill specific cards, rather than being luck-based.

 

Honestly, I like the concept of Lightsworn, but it feels like (pre-Infernity era) Infernity. The concept is nice, but they made the cards so powerful as a result of the "risk" factor that ultimately the entire archetype just got stupidly powerful, but only if you got a good opening hand. A crappy hand meant you died.

[Hunduel]

Lightsworn is a "high risk, high reward" playstyle deck. There are several games (both CCGs, or even fighting games) that feature such archetypes (or characters) that benefit from this type of playstyle. Also, there are players that like to risk their victory and play with archetypes that are not as consistent as the others, but if they work, they work ultimately. By the nature of these decks, they are indeed stronger than a "usual" type that is more consistent. Consistency =/= Power in most cases.

The problem is, that the powercreep in YGO is so real that we nowadays have a lots of "low risk, high reward" decks that indeed so consistent that these decks such as Lightsworn won't work at all without buff.

I feel like hardcore players hate LS because they feel like their opponent didn't win, just they lost to a deck. There is a small diifference between the two, and they define it by the term "luck". However, luck is involved by the nature of using cards and decks and it is something that won't disappear anytime even with the most consistent search engines.

Believe it or not, Lightsworns are actually healthy for the game for the reason that they can beat God Tier decks by a bit of luckAND/OR if the player is more skilled than its opponent.

[Lonk]

We're all salty because scrubs are only going to play this card and happen to win just because they searched a JD through this card's effect and then we are left complaining about the sacked win.  We know this card is bad, but we still don't want it to see play because it's just not a fun card to play against at all.

[The Warden]

Pretty much what Lonk said. However, I hate Lightsworn because it's not a deck, it's 37 highly expendable cards and 3 JD. That's how I've always seen the deck as. See, it doesn't matter one iota how many cards are thrown away, so long as you sack 1 JD it justifies EVERYTHING. I personally feel it disgusting to just casually toss your deck away like that; because, fully, none of the cards beyond JD matter. Decks shouldn't be run or treated like that. No deck should be classed as fully expendable because you can win with one degenerate boss. It's not a factor that people think the opponent didn't win, it's that they didn't deserve to win. Winning by JD is, just disgusting. I've actually played the deck myself, and I just felt disgusted with me when I won with JD. It's a matter of principles, and people who dislike or hate LS feel that people who enjoy running the deck have none of them. Because they cannot even begin to comprehend how you feel good with yourself winning in such a manner.

 

The whole crux of the problem with LS is that JD exists in the first place. It is, without a doubt, the most disgustingly unfair boss card to ever be able to exist @3. You can argue Grapha, but Grapha can't nuke the field for a cost that's practically non-existent now, nor be summoned from an empty field. JD is the problem I have with LS. I don't care what else they do, I just wish JD would go the fuck away and stop messing up the game. You want LS to be considered skilful? Remove the most skilless card from the deck then. Then I'd have no problem with them.

[Expelsword]

I hate to hear how you feel about Infernoids...

 

You DO know that Lightsworns include plays that aren't JD, right? They bring out DAD, Synchros, BLS, etc. too.

 

They play from the Graveyard with their massive bosses because that's what the archetype was designed to do. They use their Graveyard as the hand.

 

Also, you claim JD is "messing up the game", but correct me if I'm wrong, LS aren't topping anything. They aren't doing anything to the game.

[The Warden]

...are you kidding me? LS were designed that way before the Graveyard became the hand. That mill was supposed to have been a negative thing. I say supposed, but Konmoney fucked that up right from the start by rewarding the mill with JD and to a lesser degree Wulf. LS were originally just a powerful hodgepodge of better versions, or just flat out copies of OTHER card's effects. I mean, look at some of the OG LS:

Ryko: Man-Eater Bug/Trap Master combo
Lyla: Better Breaker the Magical Warrior
Ehren: Better Any Defence Breaker Ever

Jain: Better version of Steamroid/Any other ATK gainer that LOSES ATK when attacked, unlike Jain

Lumina: Zombie Master

Judgement Dragon: Chaos Emperor Dragon Lite (or better DAD)

Solar Recharge: Better Allure of Darkness

Charge of the Light Brigade: RotA

 

And even now, they're STILL copying effects:

 

Raiden: Better Card Trooper

Minerva (Saint): Dante

 

You have to be up your own arse to fail to recognize what the LS were in the first place. A cash cow Konmoney has milked people for over nearly a decade. They play all those bosses because LS has ceased to be an archetype altogether and are now, even in their own deck, just an engine. I also understand those other bosses, but the one that's most prominent (and problematic) is JD himself, hence the focus. And don't even try to bullshit me here. Irregardless of how well the deck is acting, JD is NOWHERE NEAR healthy for the game.

[Toffee.]

Can we just lock the topic and call it a day, to prevent further arguments?

[User was banned for this post]

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

...are you kidding me? LS were designed that way before the Graveyard became the hand. That mill was supposed to have been a negative thing. I say supposed, but Konmoney f***ed that up right from the start by rewarding the mill with JD and to a lesser degree Wulf. LS were originally just a powerful hodgepodge of better versions, or just flat out copies of OTHER card's effects. I mean, look at some of the OG LS:
Ryko: Better Man-Eater Bug Do you also hate snowman eater? Kimda curious about this
Lyla: Better Breaker the Magical Warrior she can't take out backrow, then attack, which is what breaker was used for
Ehren: Better Any Defence Breaker Ever fair enough
Jain: Better version of Steamroid/Any other ATK gainer that LOSES ATK when attacked, unlike Jain are you complaining she is better than bad cards? K
Lumina: Zombie Master comsidering there are no zombievlightswoens, they really can't be compared directly.
Judgement Dragon: Chaos Emperor Dragon Lite (or better DAD)JD is bull, but just calling it a "better DAD" isn't how the term works
Solar Recharge: Better Allure of Darkness wouldn't destiny draw be a better example? Once again, they are both specific, so these comparisons are unfair
Charge of the Light Brigade: RotA that is explains why charge is so good in HERO and satellar decks

And even now, they're STILL copying effects:

Raiden: Better Card Trooper raiden is great, but just calling him better card trooper is silly
Minerva (Saint): Dante are we talking about the same dante?

You have to be up your own arse to fail to recognize what the LS were in the first place. A cash cow Konmoney has milked people for over for nearly a decade. They play all those bosses because LS has ceased to be an archetype altogether and are now, even in their own deck, just an engine. I also understand those other bosses, but the one that's most prominent (and problematic) is JD himself, hence the focus. And don't even try to bullshit me here. Irregardless of how well the deck is acting, JD is NOWHERE NEAR healthy for the game.

Pardon typos, on mobile.

[Toffee.]

....HERO decks play Charge of the Light Brigade?

[The Warden]

Congrats Giga, you just focused on the most IRRELEVANT part of my post. LS' shtick has always been a 'we're better than you' feel towards whatever cards they were ripping off, and the mill was there to justify them being stronger. That was the original gist of LS, just being stronger than your opponent's cards with the added benefit of a ticking clock counting down until you decked out.

[Expelsword]

Congrats Giga, you just focused on the most IRRELEVANT part of my post. LS' shtick has always been a 'we're better than you' feel towards whatever cards they were ripping off, and the mill was there to justify them being stronger. That was the original gist of LS, just being stronger than your opponent's cards with the added benefit of a ticking clock counting down until you decked out.

 

The "downside" was purely an (incorrect) player conception.

I really don't think Konami thought it was a downside when they made Lightsworn, and if it was intended to be a downside, they certainly wouldn't have continued to print so many cards that turned it into an advantage.

 

Lightsworn were always about "drawing" the cards in your graveyard, not the ones in your deck. See: Dredge

[The Warden]

Okay, I don't know what game you were playing, but, back when they were released, the only 'drawing' they did was hoping they got Monster Reincarnation so they could grab JD. It was a fair long time until people realized to use Beckoning Light. The self-mill was an intended downside; the existence of JD and Wulf negated that threat.

[Expelsword]

Okay, I don't know what game you were playing, but, back when they were released, the only 'drawing' they did was hoping they got Monster Reincarnation so they could grab JD. It was a fair long time until people realized to use Beckoning Light.

 

That's the thing. It was the players who didn't know how to respond to the deck. Konami printing more and more cards that get effects from the Graveyard reinforces that it wasn't really supposed to be a downside. Lightsworn were always going to be focused on their grave.

 

Lightsworn have gotten progressively less reliant on JD as time goes on.

[The Warden]

It wasn't the LS that made Konmoney realize that, considering it was a thing in 5Ds. However, it was well into 5Ds before the Graveyard became a much more exploitable resource. The first I recall ever truly taking advantage of it was Plant Synchro, who realized the LS's mill could be used to fuel that. But it wasn't because of LS somehow being a sleeper agent for a grand idea some 2-3 years later. No, it's because the game changed to allow for it. LS were made in the last pack of GX, back well before mill and abusing the Graveyard was a thing. I faced LS decks a few times during that time, and I can tell you that if you managed to stop them, they would've decked out. The mill was a bad thing.

 

LS weren't some idiot savant, the game changed so much that you could take advantage of what is supposed to be a bad thing, just as now the more hardcore mill decks can abuse a joke card like Needlebug Nest. The game-state changes much of the time, and ever since 5Ds it's all been about abusing the Graveyard like there's no tomorrow. It's only sheer coincidence they line up, and your misconceptions about it only allow me to deduce that you only saw LS in Plant Synchro, and not as the original deck.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

The self mill wasn't a downside. It was an upside to give lumina and wulf more utility, and to make JD playable. It also synergized with monster reborn and call of the haunted. Calling it a downside is just ignorant. It never was a downside, and only looked like one if you did not understand the fundamentals of the game. If it becomes a downside, they already lost.

[Mugendramon]

Lightsworn have gotten progressively less reliant on JD as time goes on.

 

At the risk of sounding rude, you do remember what card this topic is originally about. By releasing the newest LS legacy support they're trying to push pure LS back into relevance- back into relying on JD.