Fixing the game

[chaoticjexak]

as a guy who is planning on going into tourneys- i can say that i dont mind the meta game as such- as long as im playing equel teirs. what bothers me however- is that while konami constantly makes some decks 'broken' they fail epically at making other deckseven hit tier two and thier ongoin support is often useless. (battlin boxer's trap car 'jolt counter' is a good example- i would have made it more like yosenju secret move myself- as its a negation they desperately need to get around stuff like tachyon- true breakthrough exists- but....id think that a full negation specifially for them wopuld make themplayable)

[Resident Fascist]

The game isn't broken, it has a few unfair cards but there is almost nothing in the game itself that I would consider broken, especially now with going first no longer giving an obvious advantage. Honestly, this game's mechanics are very well constructed and are very well kept. Much better than other games that I can name with problems with mechanics. 

 

 There is a reason why I honestly believe this game and Hearthstone are the two best card games by far.

[Yellow Jacket]

The meta may be a bitch to beat, but they're not unbeatable. If you have REAL skill then you shouldn't have an issue. Just last week, I fought a Nekroz player who was so confident he was going to beat me but couldn't get around my Photon Dragon. I don't play what everyone else plays. I play what I WANT to play. Power bond Ancient Gears? Sounds fun to me. Neo Galaxy-Eyes in a Galaxy deck? Sign me up. The meta is just for people who want to win or for the few who chose a deck at the start and it just ended up being meta(volcanics I see you). The part of this game that drives me crazy is the overconfident players who think because they run meta they're going to win. Tell that to the Nekroz player when my Dragon stuck his foot up his ass.

PHOTON STREAM OF DESTRUCTION BITCHES!!!!!!

[chaoticjexak]

photon is actually really strong. A freind of mine has a near perfect build that none of my freinds can beat- except when i use my effect negation deck and pretty much stop all his plays XD- but even thens only if i get a good hand. i think the only factor that makes a deck build broken is consistency- this is shown by stuff like necroz (which isnt actually that powerful with their searches negated)

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Have y'all ever wondered...maybe jerking off to the banhammer...isn't the best way to fix the game?

[ihop]

eh?

[Yellow Jacket]

That's what gives the Nekroz so much power. The number of cards that search the deck is ridiculous. I don't need to sit there for 5 min waiting for you to set up. Can't wait till the Odd-Eyes monsters and the Magicians get over here so I can be MUCH more flashy than these meta players. I love making character decks anyways.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

eh?

For Example. Instead of Banning Stratos, limit Shadow mist. Heroes will be about where they are now and will have to evolve. 

 

Etc

[VCR_CAT]

No, no Stratos needs to stay banned or finally get the Hard OPT in an errata that he deserves. And make him target the amount of backrow you're going to destroy in the cost of his other effect.

[Uggla6]

I think the degrading of the game comes naturally with the power creep that results from non-rotating formats.  Don't get me wrong I love non-rotating formats (the rest I can't play Magic), but in order to sell cards the power and complexity creep is needed.  Just like anything a game has a peek and Yu-Gi-Oh has passed it.  The game has become what some players say is boring when they added consistency.  I wouldn't necessarily saying boring in my opinion, but it has become more like a board game where all your pieces are in front of you instead of a card game where you need chance to win.  Some people prefer one over the other.  This change happened when search cards became prevalent and the Extra Deck was popular (Synchros).  Generic assess to cards decreased consistency (imagining having to draw a Xyz monster to use it).  You can say that Fusions were like that, but the inherent -2 was painful enough to offset that.  That would make Extra Deck monsters like Rituals, but as we know debatable one of the best decks is a Ritual deck and that is where search effects come into play.  So "fix" is an interesting word because the game has evolved to where it is no longer Yu-Gi-Oh and therefore it attracts a different crowd.  I was a personal fan of the addition of Xyz (but I have a little dislike towards Synchros), but if you want a game similar to the one of the old days then you must reset back to that stage.  That is why Goat Format is played more at my locals than any other format.  And I do agree that since the release of Pendulums the power creep has be expedited and that is not necessarily because of the Pendulums themselves (while I hate the idea of the mechanic).  Overall is has become a game that has lost my interest, but that doesn't mean that it is broken.  We could theorize all the things that could make the game better, but in the end no one could agree on the right way to fix the game.  And even so ultimately Konami has no incentive to do so, because their current method is profitable and at the end of the day that is more important above anything else.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

No, no Stratos needs to stay banned or finally get the Hard OPT in an errata that he deserves. And make him target the amount of backrow you're going to destroy in the cost of his other effect.

\ Le Sigh

W.e not gonna get into this one.

[VCR_CAT]

The deck has 12 RotA's and 6 CotH's these days; there's no way he can come back at even ONE and not be abused to hell and back with Mask Change and Xyz Plays; it's a busted card and people only want him BECAUSE he's busted. So no; I for one am happy that Stratos remains in jail until he gets the DMOC treatment.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

The deck has 12 RotA's and 6 CotH's these days; there's no way he can come back at even ONE and not be abused to hell and back with Mask Change and Xyz Plays; it's a busted card and people only want him BECAUSE he's busted. So no; I for one am happy that Stratos remains in jail until he gets the DMOC treatment.

It won't cause OCG isn't nearly as ...."statophobic" as ya TCGers. No way a card gets errated mid format ocg

[VCR_CAT]

"And it's not like HEROs are doing in the OCG, right?"

 

"It's not like there's a big gap between tier 1 and tier 2, right?"

Yeah, maybe if HEROs weren't as popular in the OCG and were more like the TCG, they wouldn't be inclined to cater to them as much. If HEROs weren't so huge in the OCG, I'm sure Stratos would not have seen himself lifted off the list and would have gotten the errata treatment he deserves to get off of it. Heck,

 

Overall your argument doesn't hold much ground, and it isn't like it's a secret that Stratos is an unbalanced card that's very easy to abuse. What the OCG does or does not do is ultimately irrelevant to the TCG format because of how different the card pools and playerbases are. Stratos is an unbalanced card that needs to be balanced before it gets brought back; whether that actually happens or not does not change the fact that Stratos is unbalanced. The TCG could unban him right now and Stratos would still be unbalanced and still deserve to be on the banlist; because what the banlist does or does not do is not the be-all-end-all infallible judgment call on what cards are broken and which are not; need I remind you that Snatch Steal and Sixth Sense were both brought back?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I am going to pretend I didn't see you impy Stratos was the problem with OCG heroes for the sake of my not bleeding

I am also going to pretend you didn't say OCG has no bareing on TCG, cause that would imply you are blind after seeing how similar the lists were last time

I'm finally going to pretend that you didn't just compare Statos to either of those broken trash heap cards.

Balance is an opinion, opinions are hard to refute. Is Stratos the problem in the one smaple we have? No! & that's a fact

Really, if you're going to use my things against me, do a better job. The gaps isn't big. Qlis and Tellars and Mermails regularly top and they are "tier 2"

[VCR_CAT]

Blatantly disregarding my points without properly addressing them isn't doing you any good.
 

Simply citing the banlists alone isn't enough; there's still the issue of the radically different pools of cards in any given format. The OCG format will always be an entire set ahead, coupled with access to its own exclusives as well as our own exclusives long before we even got our own version of a World Superstars set. If you are going to argue to me that not only the metagames themselves are difficult to distinguish from each other but that the playerbases are similar; you are going to have show me, on top of similar banlists, similar metagames in terms of percentages, builds in card numbers and strategies, and that you have personal experience in the meta. Seeing as you didn't do any of that and simply opted to pretend I didn't say anything tells me quite about your level of reasoning on this subject already.

 

And once again, you clearly missed the point. The point me saying that was not to say Stratos is as broken as those cards; the point was to show that the banlists are not 100% rational towards ideal gamestates, and citing such situations is evidence to that; which derails your argument that "Because the OCG has it unbanned must mean that it's safe enough to be unbanned". If there's even one instance where the banlist has made a dumb choice regarding a card, then your statement loses all ground with such an bold take on it. Twisting my words in such a way shows you also do not understand what I'm getting across.

 

But here's where I will elaborate more: No, I do not think that Stratos is the only problem with OCG Heroes; I am well aware of the CDI/Dark Law lock and all its disgusting presence. I am also aware that with the sheer consistency and access to plays that Heroes have that giving them to Stratos' very strong second effect enables those locks and plays too well; and with said consistency that even at 1 Stratos would be guaranteed to see play and abuse with how poorly written his effects are.

 

Stratos may not be THE problem, but he is A problem. Taking the mindset that just because there are other problems means we can allow more problems is a very poor approach to fixing the game. But the strength of the HERO deck in the OCG compared to the TCG is not something that can be ignored. Obviously big contributors to that is the whole Cyber Dragon Infinity thing as well as disgusting Dark Law; but Stratos certainly doesn't help the equation. If anything, giving one of the tier-1 decks MORE advantageous tools to work with is not at all a good solution to the problem.

 

Balance is not just an opinion, but opinions can be easily refuted. As they will tell you in any Reasoning course, if you cannot properly justify your opinion then your opinion is wrong. Right now, this is my opinion:

Stratos is a poorly designed card. Without proper limitations on very strong effects with added advantages given to it by poor wording from a bygone era, the card is too easily abused and too strong of a tool for HEROs. No, it is not the only problem with HEROs, but it is A problem card that needs to be addressed. Because of Stratos's poor design and ease of abuse, my opinion is that he needs to stay on the banlist or otherwise be given an errata that addresses the poor wording and easy abusability. I'm not calling for the card to be entirely neutered, and if you would like to see my idea of what a more balanced Stratos would look like I would be happy to oblige; but even I acknowledge that the card needs retooling.

 

Finally, if that list shows anything, it's that HEROs are not a deck that needs any more help, and actually need further hits to prevent the disgusting locks. They've received more than enough buffs from even just their structure deck; any more is not going to work out well.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I cannot honestly tell you that TCG and the OCG ratios will be the same for the simple fact, like you mentioned, we have game altering exclusives and and entire set ahead of you guys. This manifests itself in CDI, Neptabyss, and Crownblade for the most part. I also cannot tell you that TCG and OCG players think alike. For example, (correct me if I'm being incorrect here) if say a TCG player has an extra spot in their deck, I've noticed a lot of player put in an upstart. in OCG, if say a Shaddoll player had an extra spot, they would try to fit in another limited power spell maybe. It would be dishonest to try to tell you that the games are the same, but that is largely due to a massively different banlist between the two. I can tell you about the OCG meta fairly well, and I have topped large events on that side of the game. I am frightfully ignorant about the TCG side of techs and such which is where you need to help me. They are comparable however. Like TCG is using much of the Star Seraph Engine that OCG used (-Shocky). Some things do carry over mate.

 

My point was, lets look at Snatch and Sixth Sense. They were both legal for ~3 months? Give or take? Stratos has been legal for almost 2 years since the split. 2 YEARS. True banlist don't have 100% rational, but give me one example where a card as problematic as you paint stratos has neither been touched nor been on anyone's radar for 2 full years?

 

CDI+Dark Law being a easy turn one play as a turn one play would actually be easier in TCG with 3 ROTA instead of 1 ROTA and Stratos in OCG. The ONLY reason Heroes aren't as good as they are in OCG in TCG is due to Infinity being exclusive. When Infinity gets to TCG assuming Heros live that long, I'm sure a similar deck will rise up. Consistency cannot be blamed on Stratos when you put a card that can search everything relevant stratos does AND Goblinblerg at 3. After the T1 play, like you noted, stratos is just a way to turn Call of the Haunted into an MST. You occasionally search a second shadow mist, but E-Call and AHL usually do that job for you. MST nor a reusable one is bad for the game if enough traps are in motion of there to be such a need.

 

Stratos isn't even a problem is what I am saying. Consistency would be the same TCG side vs OCG side. The lock and Shadow Mist is the problem and those are what need hitting. How about we hit the cards that actively cockblock the opponent's decks (law) and the superior searcher (mist)?

 

"Balance is not just an opinion, but opinions can be easily refuted. As they will tell you in any Reasoning course, if you cannot properly justify your opinion then your opinion is wrong. Right now, this is my opinion:

Stratos is a poorly designed card. Without proper limitations on very strong effects with added advantages given to it by poor wording from a bygone era, the card is too easily abused and too strong of a tool for HEROs. No, it is not the only problem with HEROs, but it is A problem card that needs to be addressed. Because of Stratos's poor design and ease of abuse, my opinion is that he needs to stay on the banlist or otherwise be given an errata that addresses the poor wording and easy abusability. I'm not calling for the card to be entirely neutered, and if you would like to see my idea of what a more balanced Stratos would look like I would be happy to oblige; but even I acknowledge that the card needs retooling."

 

Refuted yes, but it's very hard to prove to someone that their opinion is "wrong" the same way you prove 1+1=/=3

 

People need to realize you don't see Stratos summoned multiple times per turn often. Due to bubbleman you want to keep the hand fairly monster free at most time. An OPT would just make Stratos pointlessly weaker. His second effect is strong. I'll admit. Summon him with a dark law face up and mask change for 2 non targetting MSTs. But that's format dependent. In OCG if I kill one torrential. I have 2 more to worry about. This is largely why I didn't want to get into the Stratos Debate. With the backrow and Heavy/HFD ratios so off between the two format, me saying a nontarggeting MST is balanced makes me looks retarded, and you saying a non opt searcher is unbalanced make you look salty in my eyes. If anything we need to debate the Traps first before going to Stratos 

[VCR_CAT]

Well for the TCG, a single free spot won't turn into an upstart because it's not very optimal to run that card at less than 3, but I understand the point you're getting across. The TCG playerbase has a much more... degenerate... mindset than the OCG. From what I understand, a lot of the OCG decks focus on more aggressive plays to gain advantage and rely more on the trading of plays (But yeah, correct me on this if I'm wrong because I haven't had any direct contact with the OCG playerbase; this is just speculation). Meanwhile, the TCG relies very heavily on the backrow, and tries to play the slower resource game. Without the threat of a Feather Duster or Heavy Storm (even at one), the "Set-5-Pass" mentality has been... very strong for quite some time. I understand some people LIKE that slow-game of baiting backrow and waiting until you can get your plays out, but that's not for me. Point is, from what I've observed, so much of the TCG tries to focus on a very classic control-heavy mindset by abusing the power traps a lot more. Heck, Burning Abyss are almost a love-song to the TCG playerbase.

 

Also... it's not... hard to find a card that's been off the radar of the banlist and very much a problem card. Some examples: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Vanity%27s_Emptiness http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Skill_DrainAnd I could go on.

 

The other thing about Stratos is that the TCG meta does not have access to any card like Harpie's Feather Duster; and while Heroes already have Acid, having a maindeck option that's a lot cheaper and easier to summon becomes a big advantage. As I said before, the TCG meta has been very backrow reliant thanks to the softness that no Heavy has provided, and Stratos would make quite a bit more of an impact than you realize thanks to that second effect.

 

And the other thing about that backrow game is how much more precious cards like Torrential are in the TCG. We only have one Compulse, and using it on a AHL'd Stratos popping it is a much bigger hit than if it were at 3. Of course, this just brings to light (as you said) that the impact of Stratos depends on the format in question just as much as its own effects. That said, I still look at the card and the lack of hard OPT and I all I feel is that there's a large portion of the TCG playerbase that would still try their hardest to abuse that as much as they could to increase their advantage as much as possible. Granted, this still kind of cements the idea that the TCG meta isn't the place for Stratos to be freed from the banlist. Granted, it would be disappointing to see him leave the banlist as that marks the death of so many good jokes.

 

But yeah; I think in the end we just need to agree that the differences between the two formats is what leads to different approaches to Stratos. But for the record; my track-record against Heroes has been pretty good and I've only played against Stratos maybe once, and I hardly remember that duel; so saltiness isn't necessarily a factor for me XD BUT, I can also say that retardedness isn't a factor for you either; it's just a difference in player-culture is all.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I guess the more relevant question is. Is more traps (by a lot)+a way to wipe it (HFD) more or less healthy than less traps and no way to easily generic wipe them. That question needs to be answered before we can even consider cards like Stratos Trish and CED

[VCR_CAT]

Agreed; but that's a big question to tackle as there's a large range of play-styles regarding traps and also what those traps are; so that's a sticky field to get into and a lot harder to find a middle-ground than a structured metagame.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Agreed; but that's a big question to tackle as there's a large range of play-styles regarding traps and also what those traps are; so that's a sticky field to get into and a lot harder to find a middle-ground than a structured metagame.

With so many ways to stop HFD around now, I'm convinced saying HFD=OTK is incorrect. Heavy is broken due to interactions with killing your own cards *glares at Qlis* But thinks like Shocky, CED, Stratos and Trish seem significantly less terrifying when you can comfy sit on a solemn Judgment +2 Compulz ya know. Like you noted it's a lot about the slow exchange of advantage. When a deck get too rapid with Adv (envoy or Star Seraph Shaddolls) Konami uses the Limited list (mostly) to crush its effectiveness. Construct and the Rulers were the first REAL ban in ages and if anything OCG's health has been improving rather than plummeting

[VCR_CAT]

Especially with cards like Yuki, we know for a fact that there are other outs to cards aside from the backrow. Overall, it's my opinion that a lot of players need to rely less on their backrow and more on their plays at hand, and I think this every time a properly placed Royal Decree completely destroys my opponent. Overall, hopefully Shaddolls won't get neutered any more; they got MURDERED with Construct and Winda dying.

[Tinkerer]

At least you two figured Stratos out peacefully. Now, if you don't mind, I would like for this topic to return to its original question and pose a new one:

Is there such a thing as an optimal gamestate for both casual and competitive players? Unfortunately, casual and competitive seem to be mutually exclusive, but why does it have to be (or DOES it even have to be?)

[VCR_CAT]

Well I actually did a good job of explaining this in a previous post, so I'll give a sparknotes:

 

The Competitive Player enjoys a format more dominated by one deck. You know what to expect in your match-ups, you know what to side for, and the game itself is more skill-focused as the tournaments are more focused on the mirror match. BUT, this is bad for casual players because they more enjoy variety and being able to play what they want; but having a focus on variety is bad for competitive players because suddenly their performance in a tournament is less how well they play and more how lucky they are in their match-ups.

 

Actually, that's all I talk about in that last post so refer here to the rest of my point: http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/333473-fixing-the-game/?p=6619725

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

At least you two figured Stratos out peacefully. Now, if you don't mind, I would like for this topic to return to its original question and pose a new one:

Is there such a thing as an optimal gamestate for both casual and competitive players? Unfortunately, casual and competitive seem to be mutually exclusive, but why does it have to be (or DOES it even have to be?)

Partially. OCG I think does the casual part quite well.... a larger card pool allows for more casual decks to spring forth. We'd have to keep doing the current OCG idea of limiting half the competitive deck's cards if we want a format where any deck can top. And then we get to the question, is that a good thing, and is siding worth a damn then