Denko Sekka

[Resident Fascist]

 

why is this thing still a card

 

[Zauls]

Will almost certainly get list attention whenever we see the next list. Its an absolute cancer for the game. Since we've already established how ridiculous it is, I wanna talk about what next format will be like without it (or 2 less of it). Personally, I think it will give Qli the extra edge on Nekroz and Shaddoll that they needed and Qli will probably end up being the best deck. That's also assuming Nekroz take a hit and perhaps even Shaddoll.

[Rodrigo]

I'm not that familiar with the card, but would it be fair if I compared it to Cold Wave?

[The Highlander]

I'm not that familiar with the card, but would it be fair if I compared it to Cold Wave?

Kinda, it is a cold leg which can be destroyed by battle (if the next turn does arrive), does not stun you out of usingyour spells during your turn and is not temporary if you can defend it (like nekroz do).

[玄魔の王]

Originally when this thing was announced, people saw it as the kind of self-defeating card Skill Drain was re: meta impact. In practice, most decks are too reliant on backrow for that to hold true.

So let me ask you this: what's the real problem here, this card's effect or the sheer number of decks that need a massive Trap lineup to work?

[Zauls]

So let me ask you this: what's the real problem here, this card's effect or the sheer number of decks that need a massive Trap lineup to work?

 

Is that even a question? Of course this card is the problem. Punishing your opponent just for playing cards that help beat his opponent is not fair at all. It gives decks that use it a very unfair advantage in certain matchups. Also, a lot of decks don't even play a crazy amount of backrow, but Denko is even good against decks that run a fairly normal amount of backrow, say Shaddoll. People are playing fucking Chaos Trap Hole against Nekroz just because of this card (sure, it works against the Jus as well, but CTH would be a stupid card to side in just for Jus). It can pretty much only be countered by Veiler, Warning or the aforementioned Chaos Trap Hole.

 

People are changing the way they play and the cards they play just because of Denko Sekka's existence. A card that impacting and centralizing is definitely the problem.

[玄魔の王]

Is that even a question? Of course this card is the problem. Punishing your opponent just for playing cards that help beat his opponent is not fair at all. It gives decks that use it a very unfair advantage in certain matchups. Also, a lot of decks don't even play a crazy amount of backrow, but Denko is even good against decks that run a fairly normal amount of backrow, say Shaddoll. People are playing f***ing Chaos Trap Hole against Nekroz just because of this card (sure, it works against the Jus as well, but CTH would be a stupid card to side in just for Jus). It can pretty much only be countered by Veiler, Warning or the aforementioned Chaos Trap Hole.

People are changing the way they play and the cards they play just because of Denko Sekka's existence. A card that impacting and centralizing is definitely the problem.

It is very much a legitimate question, because it's indicative of the path the game has taken. Remember the discussions around Necrovalley with how Graveyard-oriented the game has become? THAT is what I'm getting at.

[Resident Fascist]

It is very much a legitimate question, because it's indicative of the path the game has taken. Remember the discussions around Necrovalley with how Graveyard-oriented the game has become? THAT is what I'm getting at.

 

Cards that remove game mechanics from a game are always going to be badly designed and problematic. It's simply not very interactive to have a card like this running around. Suggesting people run decks that have less interaction so they get around Denko is part of the problem. Even discounting that argument, not having a trap heavy deck in the format lowers diversity for the players who like such decks. So yes, I'm not really sure why that could be considered a legitimate question.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Volcanic be like ayyyyy LMAO 1700 atk!

[玄魔の王]

Cards that remove game mechanics from a game are always going to be badly designed and problematic. It's simply not very interactive to have a card like this running around. Suggesting people run decks that have less interaction so they get around Denko is part of the problem. Even discounting that argument, not having a trap heavy deck in the format lowers diversity for the players who like such decks. So yes, I'm not really sure why that could be considered a legitimate question.

Holy wow did you miss the point of what I said. I'm not commenting on how much impact this card has, but what said impact says about the way the game has progressed (ie increasing importance of backrow). It's a meta commentary.

[ihop]

Denko being good is absolutely not indicative of the "sheer amount of decks that play backrow". Backrow's always been important, there's no change there and there's been a handful of formats where Denko would have been ridiculous. What makes Denko so good this particular format is that there are 2 decks which do not rely on backrow to win against other backrow decks, while also not placing massive importance on a Normal Summon. This means Denko's almost always going to be good against the decks that do rely on backrow (and there've always been decks that rely on backrow, this is nothing new) because it lets you push through whatever you needed to do with your Fusion/Ritual Spells. If anything, the rise of Denko, especially in the side, is indicative of the fact that LESS decks are relying on backrow this format.

 

Whilst I do think this format suits Denko especially well and that's why it's so much of a blowout right now, I do think it's an unfair card that's always going to be causing problems some time along the line. I've always supported a ban and I stand by it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm a little interested as to why this is such a big problem in TCG when it's not even on the radar in OCG. I mean lets look at this.

 

TCG: 1 BTH, 1 Compuls, 1 TT, 1 Warning

 

OCG: 2 BTH, 3 Compuls, 3 TT, 1 Warning, 1 Judgment

 

The first 3 are superfluous and do nothing to stop Denko, which leaves Judgment. Judgment I have never seen used to stop Dank-o in my life

 

What does this point to? *Looks at Shaddolls and Nekroz*

 

Right. OCG destroyed those decks, TCG has not. Don't scapegoat another Super poly and actually hit the problems this time please 

[Blake]

I'm a little interested as to why this is such a big problem in TCG when it's not even on the radar in OCG. I mean lets look at this.

 

TCG: 1 BTH, 1 Compuls, 1 TT, 1 Warning

 

OCG: 2 BTH, 3 Compuls, 3 TT, 1 Warning, 1 Judgment

 

The first 3 are superfluous and do nothing to stop Denko, which leaves Judgment. Judgment I have never seen used to stop Dank-o in my life

 

What does this point to? *Looks at Shaddolls and Nekroz*

 

Right. OCG destroyed those decks, TCG has not. Don't scapegoat another Super poly and actually hit the problems this time please 

How the hell is Denko not a problem?

 

It's not 'scapegoating'. Denko isn't magically absolved of its issues because it's used in decks like that. It's a problem in and of itself.

 

The difference betwee nthe TCG and OCG Denko impact is that the OCG plays to win, TCG plays not to lose. And that's what Denko does; Keeps you from losing (in order to win).

 

In a format where the mentality recognizes what Denko is best at, it shows how degenerate a card it actually is, and why it should not freely exist.

[ihop]

3 Alpha

3 Mind Crush

3 Call

2 Fiendish

2 Breakthrough

2 Mirror Force

1 Warning

1 TT

1 Vanity's

1 Oasis

1 Bottomless

 

That's a (fairly) standard trap lineup for Tellars. There's one card that stops Denko, which is Warning, and it's pretty much impossible to avoid getting Trished by keeping a zone empty in Tellars, so if you get Denko'd successfully you're probably going to get Trished and lose your Altair, one of your backrow and a Deneb from grave, all of which is pretty devastating and means you probably lose.

 

3 Lose 1 Turn

3 Mind Crush

3 Mirror Force

1 Re-Qliate

1 Vanity's

1 Skill Drain

1 Qlimate Change

 

Here's a (again, fairly) standard Qliphort trap lineup. Again, there's one out, which is pre-emptive Skill Drain (please nobody mention pre-emptive Re-Qliate), and once you're Denko'd you don't have any extra outs to Exciton Knight since you couldn't Mind Crush the Unicore and they can just chain Exciton itself to a flipped Lose 1 Turn. Sure, you could pre-emptively flip Lose 1 Turn but that has problems of its own. 

 

Saying that a couple of crappy traps are at higher numbers in Japan doesn't mean anything, you need to look at the impact on individual decks to see how powerful Denko is.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

How the hell is Denko not a problem?

 

It's not 'scapegoating'. Denko isn't magically absolved of its issues because it's used in decks like that. It's a problem in and of itself.

 

The difference betwee nthe TCG and OCG Denko impact is that the OCG plays to win, TCG plays not to lose. And that's what Denko does; Keeps you from losing (in order to win).

 

In a format where the mentality recognizes what Denko is best at, it shows how degenerate a card it actually is, and why it should not freely exist.

We want our Shaddolls to hit field and wreak field just as much as you guys do. We want our Nekroz summons to go unimpeded just as much as you guys. More so infact since we play to win, and having our monster's legs kicked from under them is troublesome.

 

If anything, Denko should see more play in OCG due to being able to lock out the first 3 traps I mentioned. Why does it not? Um, 1700 isn't that great. It's effectively unsearchable. It's not SS-able. Have people maybe considered Chalice? I mean that's what we did when Denko got annoying. 

 

Just Ban hammering everything isn't the solution black

 

 

3 Alpha

3 Mind Crush

3 Call

2 Fiendish

2 Breakthrough

2 Mirror Force

1 Warning

1 TT

1 Vanity's

1 Oasis

1 Bottomless

 

That's a (fairly) standard trap lineup for Tellars. There's one card that stops Denko, which is Warning, and it's pretty much impossible to avoid getting Trished by keeping a zone empty in Tellars, so if you get Denko'd successfully you're probably going to get Trished and lose your Altair, one of your backrow and a Deneb from grave, all of which is pretty devastating and means you probably lose.

 

3 Lose 1 Turn

3 Mind Crush

3 Mirror Force

1 Re-Qliate

1 Vanity's

1 Skill Drain

1 Qlimate Change

 

Here's a (again, fairly) standard Qliphort trap lineup. Again, there's one out, which is pre-emptive Skill Drain (please nobody mention pre-emptive Re-Qliate), and once you're Denko'd you don't have any extra outs to Exciton Knight since you couldn't Mind Crush the Unicore and they can just chain Exciton itself to a flipped Lose 1 Turn. Sure, you could pre-emptively flip Lose 1 Turn but that has problems of its own. 

 

Saying that a couple of crappy traps are at higher numbers in Japan doesn't mean anything, you need to look at the impact on individual decks to see how powerful Denko is.

Maybe TCG shouldn't go Balls deep with investing in traps? I mean 10-12 sounds like a good number? You're digging your own pit then blaming Denko for pushing the dirt in over you. @QLI 

 

Please, literally ANY monster in that deck can run over Denko....how many valk do you think they're gonna summon....

[Maeriberii Haan]

Maybe TCG shouldn't go Balls deep with investing in traps? I mean 10-12 sounds like a good number? You're digging your own pit then blaming Denko for pushing the dirt in over you. @QLI 

 

Please, literally ANY monster in that deck can run over Denko....how many valk do you think they're gonna summon....

 

This ain't no issue. Denko protects them when it's important. Which is on your turn where you want to make plays, not on your opponent's turn when they want to push, and thus it being run over is irrelevant. If it sticks around for more turns? Sweet. But using it as a cold wave is amazing enough since it ensures that Nekroz/Doll can go off and wreck the opponent without opposition.

 

And the thing is, neither TK nor Qli or other backrow-based deck is in a position to compete without the traps in the TCG. Reducing the traps reduces their defense against the onslaught of other decks big time. Denko's problem is that it forces these decks in a lose-lose situation. They need to run traps to survive the game, but running traps means they get punished by Denko drops unless they can answer it.

[SANDAA BORUTO]

Nekroz barely ever sets anything and there's a good reason some builds even main this.

 

Probably won't go down any lower than 1, but I personally would love to see this card get the hammer and never come back. This bloody thing is absolute degenerate bonkers.

[Resident Fascist]

Holy wow did you miss the point of what I said. I'm not commenting on how much impact this card has, but what said impact says about the way the game has progressed (ie increasing importance of backrow). It's a meta commentary.

 

Oh, my bad. I thought you were saying that Denko is fine for some reason. Either way, backrow is good for the game and I will never accept a card that simply just deletes it from the game. 

[ihop]

But that's the point - Tellars can't get over Denko. It's almost impossible to clear your hand because you get a Deneb search so if you lose your Altair in hand as your only card and your Deneb in grave you need to draw something  very good indeed for you to be able to get over Denko. The only way they can adapt to this is by playing Chaos Trap Hole which is hardly the best thing to play, and the deck naturally needs loads of traps because its monster plays are fairly average. "Play less of your win condition" isn't a situation that should be arising in any case. Qli aren't hit as badly since they actually can clear their hand, but they're still slammed by Exciton Knight because they need to commit they entire field to the board at all times.