Yata-Garasu

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

No, it's not fair, not one bit. But if the game was fair there'd be no winners or losers, just a draw. The game has to be unfair by design so a person can actually win. That is what luck is for, to help decide who wins.

The better deck builder, the player who misplays less. The only way it would draw is between two masters. Is there luck in chess?

[ihop]

The better deck builder, the player who misplays less. The only way it would draw is between two masters. Is there luck in chess?

 

No, but we're not playing chess. This is Yugioh. If I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess.

[Astolfo]

The better deck builder, the player who misplays less. The only way it would draw is between two masters. Is there luck in chess?

Build Nekroz, take 5 minutes to learn how to play it, remove luck at all, GG, you have almost no chance of losing at all.

 

Yay, so productive.

The better deck builder, the player who misplays less. The only way it would draw is between two masters. Is there luck in chess?

Chess and card games are completely different and bringing them up separately in the first place is stupid.

There is no base aspect of luck in chess in the first place.

 

There's always an aspect of luck in card games, since you know, cards get shuffled randomly.

Deal with it.

 

EDIT: Also, what ihop said.

 

If you don't want to play a game with luck, out of all the things, why the funk would you play a card game?

That's like, one of the most hypocritical/ironic/(whatever the specific term I forget atm is) things ever.

Card games are inherently luck-based to some level.

Now you're trying to remove that?

 

The actual funk?

[ihop]

Build Nekroz, take 5 minutes to learn how to play it,

 

Is that a serious post?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

No, but we're not playing chess. This is Yugioh. If I wanted to play chess, I'd play chess.

YGO should ideally be the same forwards and backwards trade of advantage chess is. You set up your position for a power play. Most games in they ideal form are derivatives of chess. YGO needs to clean up the top deck syndrome to start. Can luck be eliminated 100% no. Can it be decreased? Yes

[Rodrigo]

YGO should ideally be the same forwards and backwards trade of advantage chess is. You set up your position for a power play. Most games in they ideal form are derivatives of chess. YGO needs to clean up the top deck syndrome to start. Can luck be eliminated 100% no. Can it be decreased? Yes

 

Uh, no.

 

YGO is not chess.

 

No card games are actually like chess. Not even Magic: the Gathering which has a much lower topdeck rate.

[Astolfo]

Is that a serious post?

Only half so.

 

YGO should ideally be the same forwards and backwards trade of advantage chess is. You set up your position for a power play. Most games in they ideal form are derivatives of chess. YGO needs to clean up the top deck syndrome to start. Can luck be eliminated 100% no. Can it be decreased? Yes

Yeah, no.

 

 

Chess and card games are completely different and bringing them up separately in the first place is stupid.

There is no base aspect of luck in chess in the first place.

 

There's always an aspect of luck in card games, since you know, cards get shuffled randomly.

Deal with it.

 

EDIT: Also, what ihop said.

 

If you don't want to play a game with luck, out of all the things, why the f*** would you play a card game?

That's like, one of the most hypocritical/ironic/(whatever the specific term I forget atm is) things ever.

Card games are inherently luck-based to some level.

Now you're trying to remove that?

 

The actual f***?

[ihop]

YGO should ideally be the same forwards and backwards trade of advantage chess is. You set up your position for a power play. Most games in they ideal form are derivatives of chess. YGO needs to clean up the top deck syndrome to start. Can luck be eliminated 100% no. Can it be decreased? Yes

 

But that's part of the excitement of yugioh - there's always supposed to be an element of luck involved, that's what makes it interesting. Who doesn't want to see stuff like the YCS Columbus final where TJ Kinsley blindly Mind Crushed Valk to win? There's more luck than skill in that, but that's just what creates the excitement. If luck wasn't a factor all games would be decided before the event started by who built the better deck.

[The Warden]

The game simply can't work like that, otherwise, all you'd need is the best deck, and that's game for anyone who tries to play differently. Luck is what helps gives the weaker deck a chance, the sheer possibility that they could triumph over a stronger deck. If you're bitter that Nekroz lost to something weaker, that's your prerogative. This is a game, games are meant to be fun. Randomness, is fun. If you try to remove the randomness, you stop making it fun and just make it statistics.

[Astolfo]

I mean as far as I know of Nekroz, if there was no chance of luck, they'd just go:
Djinn/Unicore Lock + Possibly Secret Village Lock + Denko + Drop Trish whenever they want, whether from hand or summoning.

 

And then shake hands.

Now, unless you topdeck like Raigeki or Dark Hole or something, you're not going to win.

So hooray, no one ever wins anymore because anyone who'd seriously just want to win would go Nekroz and hope they can go first and then just pull off that luck, and you'll never have luck to draw into Raigeki or anything of the sort, so you might as well forfeit and go home, hooray!

 

Using fun decks is, you know, fun.

They're not always good, because they focus on some other gimmick rather than being pure competitive.

I still find it fun though, because every now and then, when I go up against meta, I can occasionally win, through a mix of a decently built deck, decent playing skills, and maybe a few lucksacks and a few crapsacks here and there.

 

Now, let's remove the luck factor.

Yay, bye bye originality, bye bye any sort of uniqueness.

What's the point?
You're never ever going to win against a deck that's inherently top tier, and if there's no luck, you'll immediately get funked over by Nekroz and essentially lose the game right there.

Yeah, no.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Isn't that healthier? Regardless like you said broken, not every deck will run Yata. It might give stun the ability to stop top deck wins but every deck? Nah.

 

@The Mind crush that was literally sad to watch mate. He earned something he should not have just like how Leung managed top deck Chaos Emperor Dragon and burn for exactly 2100

 

Nekroz aren't even that good. Like they lose to a competent hero player. I'm not saying remove all luck. I don't know if that can even be done. I'm saying give STUN the ability to remove top decks. We're looking at raindrops vs the ocean mate

[The Warden]

How is it healthier to erase the heartbeat of the game? To remove luck just causes a flatline, there is no pulse. The game has no life if everything is just, decided. Where is the chance that makes your heart flutter? As I said, to remove luck is to just make the game become an episode of statistics.

[ihop]

The only person who lost out from the Mind Crush was Nick Ma himself, and I'm sure he's lucked himself into many favourable situations himself. Luck's everywhere, but it comes and goes, and that's the excitement of it. If you play for long enough your luck will even out and then you'll be much happier you took the exciting road with ups and downs than simply doing averagely every time. By adding the possibility (not certainty, that's the crucial part) of winning/losing a game by luck it means there's many more options and the game is far more complex than it would be if everyone had neutral hands everytime.

[Astolfo]

The only person who lost out from the Mind Crush was Nick Ma himself, and I'm sure he's lucked himself into many favourable situations himself. Luck's everywhere, but it comes and goes, and that's the excitement of it. If you play for long enough your luck will even out and then you'll be much happier you took the exciting road with ups and downs than simply doing averagely every time. By adding the possibility (not certainty, that's the crucial part) of winning/losing a game by luck it means there's many more options and the game is far more complex than it would be if everyone had neutral hands everytime.

Thank you.

 

See, that's the thing.

It's.

A.

f***ing.

Card.

Game.

 

Cards get shuffled.

Shuffling means randomness.

Randomness means luck and crapsack.

That's the spice of things, there will always be a mix of the two.

 

What, you think people who topdeck never also crapsack?

There's mostly a chance a draw will be average, a small chance it'll be good, and an equally small chance it'll be bad.

Get over it.

The longer/more duels you play, the more that evens out to pretty much 50/50 of a good draw versus a bad draw (excluding the simply average ones/if you're not in a desperate situation, at which point you're funked probably moreso since you need more specific cards)

 

If it's exactly the same/average every time, that's f***ing stupid, and hellishly boring.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

How is it healthier to erase the heartbeat of the game? To remove luck just causes a flatline, there is no pulse. The game has no life if everything is just, decided. Where is the chance that makes your heart flutter? As I said, to remove luck is to just make the game become an episode of statistics.

I'm not removing all the luck. The opening draw is still a lot of luck in the game. Under the Hypothetical that EVERY deck ran Yata and always had the ability to use it, I would be removing top decks. I mean just look at the damn Hong Kong finals. Chaos Dragon player got outplayed. REDMD got banished. How is it fair the one card he manages to draw is exactly what he needed to win? Like way to piss on the opponent mate. Either you do a TCG and crucify every power card or you need to tone down the top decks

[Astolfo]

I'm not removing all the luck. The opening draw is still a lot of luck in the game. Under the Hypothetical that EVERY deck ran Yata and always had the ability to use it, I would be removing top decks. I mean just look at the damn Hong Kong finals. Chaos Dragon player got outplayed. REDMD got banished. How is it fair the one card he manages to draw is exactly what he needed to win? Like way to piss on the opponent mate. Either you do a TCG and crucify every power card or you need to tone down the top decks

If every deck ran Yata and always had the ability to use it, you might as well just throw away the rest of your deck after they get out Yata, since you'll never ever f***ing use it again in that duel.

Sure, Chaos Dragons got outplayed, REDMD got banished, one card draw changed it.

That's how it is, that's luck, that's because it's a f***ing card game which uses shuffling.

Get over it.

 

Luck is random, it favors a person sometimes and then bites them in the ass at others.

That still evens out to 50/50ish over time.

Get over it.

 

 

Sure, you could say someone won the duel because of a good draw.

But think about it this way, lots of people can and do lose because of a shitty one.

#FoodForThought

[The Warden]

If every deck had the capacity to use Yata successfully... wouldn't it just be smarter to ban Yata? Considering that hypothetical seems to suggest that Yata is causing a lot of problems, and should be hit if it's game deciding every duel.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If every deck had the capacity to use Yata successfully... wouldn't it just be smarter to ban Yata? Considering that hypothetical seems to suggest that Yata is causing a lot of problems, and should be hit if it's game deciding every duel.

It doesn't decide the duel as much as keep the duel in motion. You have your dose of luck from the opening draw. The rest of your "luck" should be based on how poorly your opponent plays. Luck and Skill are two sides of the same coin. 

 

@Frey, I'm not salty, I helped him make the CD deck. I just know from watching the match he made errors and his opponent played better. Simple cold hard fact

[Astolfo]

Yay, let me just go and make a card like this:


Remove Luck

[ Spell / Continuous ]

When this card is activated: Select any number of cards in your Deck and then place them on top of your deck in any order. You do not have to shuffle your deck for the rest of the Duel (even if this card leaves the field). You can only activate 1 "Remove Luck" per turn. This card is unaffected by any other effects except its own.

 

 

Now, according to your logic, this is an absolutely stunning, amazing card! Let's make it go to 3, and oh right, let's let the player shuffle the rest of their deck and then make it the sixth card every time, so that only their first hand is the lucky one every time! SO AMAZING!

 

Oh right, on that note, let's go change Yata's effect, since it would essentially do the same thing anyways.

 

 

Yata-Garasu

[ Fiend / Spirit ]

This card cannot be Special Summoned. This card returns to its owner's hand during the End Phase of the turn it is Normal Summoned or flipped face-up. When this card inflicts Battle Damage to your opponent, they remove their entire Deck from the Duel. Your opponent cannot draw for the rest of the Duel (even if this card leaves the field). This effect cannot be negated.

 

 

Yay, this is so amazing, I bet you completely love this, right TEW?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Remove Luck

[ Spell / Continuous ]

When this card is activated: Select any number of cards in your Deck and then place them on top of your deck in any order. You do not have to shuffle your deck for the rest of the Duel (even if this card leaves the field). You can only activate 1 "Remove Luck" per turn. 

 

That much. Outside of rare examples like Exodia if you can plan out the entire duel based on an inking of what your opponent is running then hell funking yes.

 

Yata however is not uncounterable, It's not absolute. It can on occasion allow a player who is rightfully winning to not be sheet on by a lucky topdeck

 

That being said, wasn't it TCG that decided to ban Reborn for the same damn logic? I'm just advocating the reverse of banhammering everything to reduce luck. The power pushes in OCG are still great, except maybe with Yata we might see a stun deck do something productive for once is all

[Astolfo]

 

Remove Luck

[ Spell / Continuous ]

When this card is activated: Select any number of cards in your Deck and then place them on top of your deck in any order. You do not have to shuffle your deck for the rest of the Duel (even if this card leaves the field). You can only activate 1 "Remove Luck" per turn. 

 

That much. Outside of rare examples like Exodia if you can plan out the entire duel based on an inking of what your opponent is running then hell f***ing yes.

 

Yata however is not uncounterable, It's not absolute. It can on occasion allow a player who is rightfully winning to not be s*** on by a lucky topdeck

 

That being said, wasn't it TCG that decided to ban Reborn for the same damn logic? I'm just advocating the reverse of banhammering everything to reduce luck. The power pushes in OCG are still great, except maybe with Yata we might see a stun deck do something productive for once is all

 

Except if they negate or do anything to respond to your precious Remove Luck card (which was a joke card to make fun of this issue anyways), you suddenly get the luck factor back.

That's so horribly game-breaking, it's such a heresy, it cannot be tolerated obviously, right? That's why I thought you'd love the last clause.

 

> tech in exodia

> gg

No luck factor, so thus by your definition, this is perfectly fine.

 

Yata is uncounterable and absolute if you manage to get a single attack off of it without it being stopped.

Not that hard to do.

Attack once, repeat, peck 200 each time, wait until that adds up to however much LP they have, GG.

There's no reason to do anything else, since that might let your opponent draw, which is risky and stupid.

So just peck with Yata over and over, GG.

 

Yay, so good for the game.

 

> Reborn

You seriously think

That Reborn was banned

because it was a luck card?

Are you actually funking serious?

It was banned because it let you funking Special Summon a monster from either player's Grave to your own field for funking free!

 

> Stun deck

> with Yata

Rename it to "Let me get out Yata and hope they don't have a counter and then peck for 200 every single turn, and if they have a counter, I might as well forfeit"

That should do it.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Aight guys. Sorry for my luck rant. All I want to do is give stun a mechanism to maintain advantage and this card is perfect for that

[Slinky]

Why do you want to give Stun more tools? Stun isn't exactly the best example of "healthiness", as the deck is pretty much geared towards negating your opponent's sheet so they can't play.

 

Saying Yata would be good in the deck just amplifies the points we've been trying to tell you.

 

You've been talking about luck for the past couple pages, and how Yata removes it, when it would actually be the opposite. Think of it this way. Yata would be a win button if they don't have X or Y. Guess what that is? More luck. The card is like Vanity's in a sense, where if you don't have an immediate out, you lose. And Vanity's isn't a healthy card either.

[evilfusion]

My head is hurting from the logic shift.

 

Yes, topdecks suck. Yes, luck can be frustrating, despite it being an integral part of card games in general. But the answer is NOT "don't let your opponent draw cards anymore. This removes the topdecking luck factor and now I'll win fairly".

 

I simply cannot grasp how anyone can defend skipping a player's Draw Phase a potentially infinite number of times. And Yata is one of the cards that allows this with a MINIMAL amount of player interaction. My other example of Fenrir required devotion, had mediocre ATK, and had to kill a player's resource in battle to apply the skip. Yata just needs an open Field. It encourages you to nuke your opponent's Field and then kill them slowly while they can do nothing but sit there because they aren't getting any new resources, but you are. This is a massive shift in momentum, and even a single Draw Phase lost could ruin your chances of winning. This is even CHEAPER than them topdecking a BLS or Reborn, because at least you were still involved in the Duel. Once your Draw Phases are locked, you're not really even playing anymore.

[ihop]

My head is hurting from the logic shift.

 

Yes, topdecks suck. Yes, luck can be frustrating, despite it being an integral part of card games in general. But the answer is NOT "don't let your opponent draw cards anymore. This removes the topdecking luck factor and now I'll win fairly".

 

I simply cannot grasp how anyone can defend skipping a player's Draw Phase a potentially infinite number of times. And Yata is one of the cards that allows this with a MINIMAL amount of player interaction. My other example of Fenrir required devotion, had mediocre ATK, and had to kill a player's resource in battle to apply the skip. Yata just needs an open Field. It encourages you to nuke your opponent's Field and then kill them slowly while they can do nothing but sit there because they aren't getting any new resources, but you are. This is a massive shift in momentum, and even a single Draw Phase lost could ruin your chances of winning. This is even CHEAPER than them topdecking a BLS or Reborn, because at least you were still involved in the Duel. Once your Draw Phases are locked, you're not really even playing anymore.

 

But that's all it is - a potentially infinite amount of times. Like I said before you lose so much momentum summoning Yata and it doesn't help you at all in situations where you are behind in the game since it just gives the opponent another turn to set up even with the one less card, and that's assuming a monster with 200 ATK is even going to be able to swing. Sure, it's ridiculously good if they have no other cards and you have only a handful of cards as well as Yata, but how often does this actually happen? Being one card behind isn't the be-all and end-all of the game. People are prepared to sacrifice one card at the start of the game just so they can make their plays first, this is a similar thing because the person being hit by the Yata is sacrificing a card (admittedly at a more developed stage in the game) in order for the opponent not to be able to make as much use of their turn as they could.

 

I'll admit there are situations where Yata is going to be very good, but I don't think people are going to be prepared to give up a deck slot to play a card which is more than likely to give little to no value just to have a higher chance of winning games that they have already more than likely won.

 

edit: It doesn't compare with BLS or Reborn. BLS and Reborn win games for players who should probably not have won them. Yata makes sure players who should probably win the game anyway win them.