New TCG Banlist [08/04/2016]

[Rest in Piss YCMaker]

The only things I like are TER to 1, DMoC and CCV to 3. The rest of it I'm on a spectrum of discontent to indifference.

[VCR_CAT]

Where are you guys getting the idea that Monarchs are just dropping down? They're actually outperforming Kozmos in the current meta.

 

[Blake]

Where are you guys getting the idea that Monarchs are just dropping down? They're actually outperforming Kozmos in the current meta.

 

E-Tele to 2

Reasoning to 1

Upstart to 1

Chicken Game to 0

 

These are all monarch hits that hurt the deck a fair bit,

[IQuitDolphin]

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VCR_CAT, on 08 Apr 2016 - 7:20 PM, said:

Where are you guys getting the idea that Monarchs are just dropping down? They're actually outperforming Kozmos in the current meta.
 

​Source? Also, the table is for the current format (I believe?), so this along with OCG's list and result may be the reason why Konami decided to indirectly hit the deck rather than directly, and to the degree to that which it did. I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped down soon after.

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​My personal meta prediction

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​T1

​--

​PK BA

​Kozmo / Dracopal

​Monarch

​Atlanean (Sleeper T1)

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​T2

​--

​WHO CARES?!?

[ihop]

Dracopals won't be T1

[IQuitDolphin]

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Dracopals won't be T1

 

​I'd be somewhat willing to defend myself, but I need to eat and shower and etc. so...

[Blake]

Thing is, TCG still has Pendulum Sorc and Monkeyboard.

 

In exchange... it loses what little burst it had outside of drawing a pair of limited cards.

 

It's not going to be a best deck. It lacks the Odd-Eyes stuff from the OCG to fill the gaps, yet doesn't have enough extra good stuff.

[The Warden]

I am really going to miss Upstart.

[VCR_CAT]

​Source? Also, the table is for the current format (I believe?), so this along with OCG's list and result may be the reason why Konami decided to indirectly hit the deck rather than directly, and to the degree to that which it did. I wouldn't be surprised if it dropped down soon after.

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZMNJ5-nCTPn3c_L1J9Vk1x55ELoLeSGEWI5dSkABtIY/edit#gid=0

 

This is based off the current format on the adjusted list. I hesitate the bring up the source not because I doubt the viability of the tier list (it's honestly one the absolute best and thorough numbers-based tier lists I've yet to find) but because it's Pojo and more likely than not people her would just scoff and turn their noses up. "Pojo!" They snort. "Yee would be more likely to find credible academics in the slums with the rest of the peasants!" Yeah, Pojo's a dumpster on the internet; doesn't really mean that their tier lists are really top-notch (which I find kind of funny).

 

 

 

E-Tele to 2

Reasoning to 1

Upstart to 1

Chicken Game to 0

 

These are all monarch hits that hurt the deck a fair bit,

 

Admittedly, I've known about the Quantum build for some time, but Reasoning, Upstart, and Chicken Game hits are not hits that I saw even remotely affecting Monarchs. This is more-so because I just thought the FTK variant ran that crap; every other build I saw (both good and bad) never even touched those cards.

 

Anyways, thoughts on the overall banlist:

 

Banned: Run of the mill. Chicken Game kind of deserved it; as much as I used that card in my favorite deck for the TCG, I'm not sore to see it go. Wavering's hit was a lot harsher than I expected. Wow. A limit would have sufficed. Speaking of limits...

 

Limited: Standard protocol. Wisdom-Eye was a hit in-line with the OCG, but one that I feel was waaayyyy too harsh. Way to kill the best Dark Magician deck before it happens, yeah? Norden and TER are a welcome surprise. Ignister and Draco make sense and are very much welcome to be hit. Reasoning I saw that coming.

 

Upstart... I mean really? If any reason to hit it, I can see it being that the card was so generic that if you wanted a good deck thinning option, you practically had no choice. That said, it was still good for that and a great boon for decks that lack the generic support to make their decks consistent on the S/T end. It hurts way too much, and I feel like Konami really needs to fill this void soon with something good, yet more balanced in their eye because dang son, that's a void many decks will need to fill. Not mad, but just kind of really sad to see it go.

 

Semi Limited: Debris and Allure are fine; I understand the TCG wanting to test the waters on that before moving them up if need be. E-Tele... hurts. Like, I would appreciate if Konami had something else to offer in consistency for Psychics than this; but as of right now there isn't. This, coupled with Chicken Game's hit, really shot my favorite deck in the foot and I'm basically going to lose all interest in the TCG format until the next list if I can't pull them back up.

 

Unlimit: No significant thoughts. DMoC to 3 is a shocker. Bold strategy, let's see if it pays off.

 

 

Final thoughts: Kind of really pissed that Dominion wasn't hit. I mean honestly, I'd be fine with Monarchs if the deck wasn't such a disgusting floodgate deck. It's an absolute chore to play against and I hate every minute of it except those were I'm pounding them into the ground for the victory (because then I don't have to duel them anymore). If anything, I really do not like where this format's going. Kozmos just do not interest me in one bit, and Monarchs are the most unfun deck to play against in the current meta by a long shot. The potential meta coming up just looks disgusting where I'm at, and I'll probably just be playing around with OCG stuff until something better for the TCG comes along. 

 

And, gonna be honest, I think you guys have too high hopes for PK/BA. They didn't do comparatively as well here as they did in the OCG, and I really don't see them pulling ahead of Monarchs or Kozmos. Draco and/or Pals are going to find a new norm to play and the status quo will probably be maintained if that's the case. 

[vla1ne]

Final thoughts: Kind of really pissed that Dominion wasn't hit. I mean honestly, I'd be fine with Monarchs if the deck wasn't such a disgusting floodgate deck. It's an absolute chore to play against and I hate every minute of it except those were I'm pounding them into the ground for the victory (because then I don't have to duel them anymore). If anything, I really do not like where this format's going. Kozmos just do not interest me in one bit, and Monarchs are the most unfun deck to play against in the current meta by a long shot. The potential meta coming up just looks disgusting where I'm at, and I'll probably just be playing around with OCG stuff until something better for the TCG comes along. 

 

And, gonna be honest, I think you guys have too high hopes for PK/BA. They didn't do comparatively as well here as they did in the OCG, and I really don't see them pulling ahead of Monarchs or Kozmos. Draco and/or Pals are going to find a new norm to play and the status quo will probably be maintained if that's the case. 

funny enough, monarchs are one of my favorite decks to play against, and they're also one of my favorite decks to use. i can't deny that dominion's a bastard of a floodgate though, i hate using it. (that's my own personal issue with floodgate cards though.) but the way they work is fun for me, and i'm the kind of person who forgets to bring my extra deck(s) sometimes, so they even suit my tendency to go full airhead.

 

funny thought though, they hit upstart, but pantheism's still safe and sound. i find that hilarious as a monarch player.

[Βyakuya]

Believe it or not, a good amount of Monarch players actually run Upstart, Chicken Game, and to some extent: Reasoning. Chicken Game and Upstart are simple filters that helps you draw into your Monarch cards and prevents bricking. For Chicken Game, it can easily be replaced with Dominion. Reasoning can hit into Kuraz, Idea/Eidos, or Aither/Erebus/Mega Monarch for field presence. Hitting these cards was Konami's way of inherently hitting Monarchs; without them, it makes the FTK variant impossible, but also gets rid of filter options for Monarchs. All that is left now is to see how Monarchs will do with Pantheism and Dominion still intact, since they are still powerful tools that are not as flexible as Upstart of Chicken Game.

 

Though, I'm very sad in the end Upstart and Chicken Game did get hit, since they were efficient filter tools for many decks. But in the end, if Monarchs are still going to remain rampant, then it would somewhat be a wasteful hit. Same with Reasoning since my Infernoids have lost some power, but there are always viable replacements like Left Arm Offering.

 

Dracopals seem to have some fair hits. It's pretty much now knocked down a tier or half of one and can still compete, but is hindered by the limitations of combos. It's great that TCG found its own way to keep things stable unlike OCG's overkill. Ignister was such a ridiculous card to run and summon in multiples, and Face-Off gave too much advantage no matter what you pick or send.

 

I'm having very high hopes for PK Fire though. They were not that popular, but after Dracopal hits and inherent Monarch hits, Kozmo and PK Fire can fight for Tier 1, and I can say it's a fair matchup for both sides. Kozmo can have a bad time with F0, can't out-float the BA, and can be prone to things like Dark Law variants or powered Break Swords. PK Fire can have their own difficulties facing against targetless beatsticks, Kozmojo, and often times be under powered. Either way, both sides are now capable to fight since nothing from both sides were hit (barring Reasoning and E-Tele), and everything else is moved out of the way for them. I can confirm it myself; I have engaged in some PK Fire vs Kozmo matchups; not only they were tough, but they were fair and not one-sided.

[Slinky]

Believe it or not, a good amount of Monarch players actually run Upstart, Chicken Game, and to some extent: Reasoning. Chicken Game and Upstart are simple filters that helps you draw into your Monarch cards and prevents bricking. For Chicken Game, it can easily be replaced with Dominion. Reasoning can hit into Kuraz, Idea/Eidos, or Aither/Erebus/Mega Monarch for field presence. Hitting these cards was Konami's way of inherently hitting Monarchs; without them, it makes the FTK variant impossible, but also gets rid of filter options for Monarchs. All that is left now is to see how Monarchs will do with Pantheism and Dominion still intact, since they are still powerful tools that are not as flexible as Upstart of Chicken Game.

 

Though, I'm very sad in the end Upstart and Chicken Game did get hit, since they were efficient filter tools for many decks. But in the end, if Monarchs are still going to remain rampant, then it would somewhat be a wasteful hit. Same with Reasoning since my Infernoids have lost some power, but there are always viable replacements like Left Arm Offering.

 

Dracopals seem to have some fair hits. It's pretty much now knocked down a tier or half of one and can still compete, but is hindered by the limitations of combos. It's great that TCG found its own way to keep things stable unlike OCG's overkill. Ignister was such a ridiculous card to run and summon in multiples, and Face-Off gave too much advantage no matter what you pick or send.

 

I'm having very high hopes for PK Fire though. They were not that popular, but after Dracopal hits and inherent Monarch hits, Kozmo and PK Fire can fight for Tier 1, and I can say it's a fair matchup for both sides. Kozmo can have a bad time with F0, can't out-float the BA, and can be prone to things like Dark Law variants or powered Break Swords. PK Fire can have their own difficulties facing against targetless beatsticks, Kozmojo, and often times be under powered. Either way, both sides are now capable to fight since nothing from both sides were hit (barring Reasoning and E-Tele), and everything else is moved out of the way for them. I can confirm it myself; I have engaged in some PK Fire vs Kozmo matchups; not only they were tough, but they were fair and not one-sided.

 

What the funk is PK Fire?

[Blake]

What the funk is PK Fire?

PKBA.

 

Some people call it PK Fire as a nod to Earthbound, but it's really not very solid.

[VCR_CAT]

Believe it or not, a good amount of Monarch players actually run Upstart, Chicken Game, and to some extent: Reasoning. Chicken Game and Upstart are simple filters that helps you draw into your Monarch cards and prevents bricking. For Chicken Game, it can easily be replaced with Dominion. Reasoning can hit into Kuraz, Idea/Eidos, or Aither/Erebus/Mega Monarch for field presence. Hitting these cards was Konami's way of inherently hitting Monarchs; without them, it makes the FTK variant impossible, but also gets rid of filter options for Monarchs. All that is left now is to see how Monarchs will do with Pantheism and Dominion still intact, since they are still powerful tools that are not as flexible as Upstart of Chicken Game.

 

Though, I'm very sad in the end Upstart and Chicken Game did get hit, since they were efficient filter tools for many decks. But in the end, if Monarchs are still going to remain rampant, then it would somewhat be a wasteful hit. Same with Reasoning since my Infernoids have lost some power, but there are always viable replacements like Left Arm Offering.

 

Dracopals seem to have some fair hits. It's pretty much now knocked down a tier or half of one and can still compete, but is hindered by the limitations of combos. It's great that TCG found its own way to keep things stable unlike OCG's overkill. Ignister was such a ridiculous card to run and summon in multiples, and Face-Off gave too much advantage no matter what you pick or send.

 

I'm having very high hopes for PK Fire though. They were not that popular, but after Dracopal hits and inherent Monarch hits, Kozmo and PK Fire can fight for Tier 1, and I can say it's a fair matchup for both sides. Kozmo can have a bad time with F0, can't out-float the BA, and can be prone to things like Dark Law variants or powered Break Swords. PK Fire can have their own difficulties facing against targetless beatsticks, Kozmojo, and often times be under powered. Either way, both sides are now capable to fight since nothing from both sides were hit (barring Reasoning and E-Tele), and everything else is moved out of the way for them. I can confirm it myself; I have engaged in some PK Fire vs Kozmo matchups; not only they were tough, but they were fair and not one-sided.

 

The unfortunate part is that if they wanted to hit Monarchs, they have a few notable cards in their line-up that are more than deserving of a little banlist attention (Dominion and Pantheism); but the fact that they hit so many generic cards instead of hitting these cards just frustrates me. Hitting Chicken Game and Upstart affects way more than just Monarchs, and overall it just seems stupid to indirectly hit them with the most popular and effective deck thinning cards instead of just directly hitting the deck instead.

[Blake]

The unfortunate part is that if they wanted to hit Monarchs, they have a few notable cards in their line-up that are more than deserving of a little banlist attention (Dominion and Pantheism); but the fact that they hit so many generic cards instead of hitting these cards just frustrates me. Hitting Chicken Game and Upstart affects way more than just Monarchs, and overall it just seems stupid to indirectly hit them with the most popular and effective deck thinning cards instead of just directly hitting the deck instead.

As I've pointed out, for Monarchs ALONE, the OCG hit those and... deck still functions totally fine. TCG tried another route, nailing consistency instead of power.

 

Other decks of note being nocked down:

Super Quantum

Odd-Eyes Pendulum (not dead in TCG post-SHVI, but hurt between lack of Chicken Game/Odd-Eyes Persona Dragon)

Assorted FTK/OTK

 

It was an alpurpose hit.

[VCR_CAT]

As I've pointed out, for Monarchs ALONE, the OCG hit those and... deck still functions totally fine. TCG tried another route, nailing consistency instead of power.

 

Other decks of note being nocked down:

Super Quantum

Odd-Eyes Pendulum (not dead in TCG post-SHVI, but hurt between lack of Chicken Game/Odd-Eyes Persona Dragon)

Assorted FTK/OTK

 

It was an alpurpose hit.

 

Well, I should at least point out that, while I do really dislike Monarchs, I'm not necessarily advocating for their death. If the deck still functions totally fine with those hits, that's great; maybe then it can at least be a little fun to play against.

 

And yeah; I do have to admit that my bias is towards Super Quantums and I've basically totally miffed that the only deck I had a vested interest in the TCG got kicked in the knees while the upper-tier stuff more-or-less doesn't change besides the only interesting deck among those top three getting shot down.

 

I mean honestly, this upcoming format is looking to be one of the worst.

[vla1ne]

 

I mean honestly, this upcoming format is looking to be one of the worst.

Really? Quantums very likely still work you know. they won't have the same engine, but they can't be that dead. there's more than likely a lot of previously overlooked cards you can run in place of the ones you lost. i don't play them, so i can't offer too much as far as strategies and alternate plays, but there's a lot of cards in the game outside the obvious options that got list attention. hell, my infernoids got hit WAY worse than super quantums did, and after a few rounds testing, they're still a threat. nowhere near the reasoning shenanigans that i will fondly remember, but they aren't dead yet.

[Kaiji]

Quantums definitely aren't dead but the hits are enough to convince weaker players to drop the deck

[J-Max]

Upstart to 1 is more then welcomed. It turned a 40 Card Deck to essentially a 37 and it helped to get the cards you needed faster. I think mostly everyone will have to change their Decks as me at least ran 3 Upstart in all of them lol

[Dog King]

If u ran 3 upstart before there is still no reason not to run 1 now,

Ive even used 1 or 2 upstart before when i needed to fill up the deck,

Its a very good hit a long with chicken game as decks now cant rely too much in 2-3 specific card combos to win

[VCR_CAT]

Really? Quantums very likely still work you know. they won't have the same engine, but they can't be that dead. there's more than likely a lot of previously overlooked cards you can run in place of the ones you lost. i don't play them, so i can't offer too much as far as strategies and alternate plays, but there's a lot of cards in the game outside the obvious options that got list attention. hell, my infernoids got hit WAY worse than super quantums did, and after a few rounds testing, they're still a threat. nowhere near the reasoning shenanigans that i will fondly remember, but they aren't dead yet.

 

Emergency Teleport is all that Quantums have in the way of consistency in the S/T department. Hitting that down to 2 alone hurts a bit, but Chicken Game was also a card that they make a very liberal use of, and on top of that Upstart was the runner up. No, the deck might not be dead yet, but hitting all of those was a significant blow to the deck's consistency. At the moment, you're actually forced to run 3 Blue Layers, and that's not exactly preferable.

 

 

 

If u ran 3 upstart before there is still no reason not to run 1 now,

 

Running upstart at 1 or even 2 is a waste of time. The point of upstart is to raise your deck's consistency by increasing the chances of getting any other given card in your deck into your hand. Running it at 2 is sub-optimal; running it at 1 is useless and a waste of time.

 

 

 

 

Upstart to 1 is more then welcomed.

 

It really isn't, especially when there's no good alternative for decks that really need a boost in consistency in their S/T line-up. If a given deck isn't able to get away with Duality and doesn't have any other means of making their own deck consistent, then they're going to brick a lot more often if they don't open a lot of monsters. And that sucks a LOT.

[goodfusion]

Running upstart at 1 or even 2 is a waste of time. The point of upstart is to raise your deck's consistency by increasing the chances of getting any other given card in your deck into your hand. Running it at 2 is sub-optimal; running it at 1 is useless and a waste of time.

 

But why wouldn't the decks that ran 3 Upstart Goblin still run the one that they are allowed???

[VCR_CAT]

But why wouldn't the decks that ran 3 Upstart Goblin still run the one that they are allowed???

 

I did just explain why, but here it is in different wording:

 

Playing upstart at 1 has a completely negligible effect on your deck's consistency; the odds of getting a card in a 40 card deck compared to a 39 card is of such little difference that it's just not going to do anything for your deck's consistency. At this point, using 1 Upstart to "raise your deck's consistency" when it hardly does that at all hurts your deck more than anything. There's an entire pool of incredibly powerful, limited cards that will have a great effect on your deck in terms of utility. However, using that slot instead for a card that will have little to no effect on how well your deck functions is a waste of time and hurts your deck more than anything, considering you could be running something that does have an impact.

 

Simply put, running 3 upstarts has a noticeable and effective impact on your deck's consistency. You could run 3 of something else, but a lot of decks will prefer and appreciate this added boost.

 

Running 2 upstarts doesn't have the same impact, and it's rather sub-optimal. You'll notice a bit of something, but at this point you should be running 3.

 

Running 1 upstart won't do anything for you, and it's a complete waste of time. The idea of "Why not run just run 1, then?" means that the person proposing this idea doesn't quite understand why people ran upstart at all, and why it was considered good for a given deck's functionality.

[Blake]

tbh the logic of upstart is that it's a card you never run less than maximum of

 

It may very well be a fine filler card, given that it's just a cantrip that, as Kaiji pointed out, can now be calculated to OTK in the 8-9K range instead of 8-11K, which is a big difference.

 

I'm not super on board with the idea, either, but it's there.

[IQuitDolphin]

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I did just explain why, but here it is in different wording:

 

Playing upstart at 1 has a completely negligible effect on your deck's consistency; the odds of getting a card in a 40 card deck compared to a 39 card is of such little difference that it's just not going to do anything for your deck's consistency. At this point, using 1 Upstart to "raise your deck's consistency" when it hardly does that at all hurts your deck more than anything. There's an entire pool of incredibly powerful, limited cards that will have a great effect on your deck in terms of utility. However, using that slot instead for a card that will have little to no effect on how well your deck functions is a waste of time and hurts your deck more than anything, considering you could be running something that does have an impact.

 

Simply put, running 3 upstarts has a noticeable and effective impact on your deck's consistency. You could run 3 of something else, but a lot of decks will prefer and appreciate this added boost.

 

Running 2 upstarts doesn't have the same impact, and it's rather sub-optimal. You'll notice a bit of something, but at this point you should be running 3.

 

Running 1 upstart won't do anything for you, and it's a complete waste of time. The idea of "Why not run just run 1, then?" means that the person proposing this idea doesn't quite understand why people ran upstart at all, and why it was considered good for a given deck's functionality.

 

​For an even easier tl;dr

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​You run Upstart as a pseudo-proxy to hit the rest of the cards in your Deck. Now that Upstart is at 1, the "pseudo-proxy" effect isn't as good anymore, and you might as well run a power spell you couldn't run before like Raigeki in its place.