Ohio: Heartbeat Bill vetoed, other bill signed instead

[cr47t]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/12/13/ohio-governor-vetoes-heartbeat-bill-but-signs-into-law-another-abortion-restriction/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_abortion-0435pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f0b83511637d

 

So, something happened on this. Thought I would make a new thread since a. the other one is locked and b. this would shift the discussion to the new bill instead (theoretically).

 

Discuss.

[VCR_CAT]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/12/13/ohio-governor-vetoes-heartbeat-bill-but-signs-into-law-another-abortion-restriction/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_abortion-0435pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f0b83511637d

 

So, something happened on this. Thought I would make a new thread since a. the other one is locked and b. this would shift the discussion to the new bill instead (theoretically).

 

Discuss.

 

Can you summarize this for those of us that really don't want to subscribe to Washington Post?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Kasich was being smart. 20 week abortion banned passed, heartbeat vetoed. Heartbeat would have failed in courts, until the time that Trump can can replace another judge on SCOTUS. 

 

This would do irreperable damage to the movement according to the leading Pro-Life Org in Ohio. 

 

http://www.ohiolife.org/gov_kasich_signs_landmark_bill_to_challenge_roe

 

20 weeks passes courts because at that point you can apply, I beleive Cruel and Unusual, punishment to the fetus due him/her feeling pain.

 

It's not a happy day for us pro-lifers, since young boys and girls from 6 weeks to 20 are still being massacred, but it's a win all the same

 

---

 

Here's a look at the non-human that the Heartbeat bill would have saved. 

 

[spoiler=spoilered]

 

 

10 weeks, 6 days.

 

Just a scientific look at #notahuman

 

---

 

Edit:

 

I will voice my disapproval towards the GOP here. They made it so only the most performative and painful abortion method is legal. The one that involves crushing the skull and slowly dragging out bits. I get it was done to put the dems in a place where they would lose the 20 week court cases, but it's a disgustingly sadistic means to an end

 

---

 

 

Can you summarize this for those of us that really don't want to subscribe to Washington Post?

You can bypass paywall if you use incognito mode

[Slinky]

Did you really have to post that stupid image? Its disgusting, and makes me not want to listen to anything you have to say.

 

 

Also "cruel and unusual punishment". funk off. Abortions aren't a punishment. That branch has nothing to do with this tree.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Did you really have to post that stupid image? Its disgusting, and makes me not want to listen to anything you have to say.

 

 

Also "cruel and unusual punishment". funk off. Abortions aren't a punishment. That branch has nothing to do with this tree.

Why not, it's not a human, and a good example of what the heartbeat bill would have saved. I can cut the size down for you a bit if it's making you lag.

 

Me funking off doesn't make a fetus's nervous system any less developed at 20 weeks. I'm afraid me funking off won't suddenly make them stop feeling the pain of having their head cracked open and being ripped in two :)

[Dad]

So fetuses can feel pain, but doctor's are still arguing on whether or not infants should be put under for scrotum clipping, because they're not sure if they feel pain or not?

 

?

[Delibirb]

Why not, it's not a human, and a good example of what the heartbeat bill would have saved. I can cut the size down for you a bit if it's making you lag.

 

Me f***ing off doesn't make a fetus's nervous system any less developed at 20 weeks. I'm afraid me f***ing off won't suddenly make them stop feeling the pain of having their head cracked open and being ripped in two :)

I assume that he's not fond of the image because you're deliberately using it to shame your opponents, which not only isn't working, but is a disgusting method (like the medium) to make your point upon, and therefore turns opponents off to your already childish argumentative skills.

 

Your final remark there is an example of these poorly realized skills. Show how this is cruel and unusual punishment. It's not pleasant for us to think about, and it may be "painful" for the fetus, but alive or not, it isn't yet sentient, it can't yet think even about instinctive things, and it doesn't understand pain. It's nerves simply react as they do when dealt pain. Cold and irrelevant. That's not even getting into Slinky's point of this not being a punishment.

 

I do so hope you stick around for this one; I'm interested to see you make an attempt to grow, if not as a person of reason, than one with reasonable ability to defend your position without resorting to loaded words or appeals to authority, as opposed to outright refusing to listen.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I assume that he's not fond of the image because you're deliberately using it to shame your opponents, which not only isn't working, but is a disgusting method (like the medium) to make your point upon, and therefore turns opponents off to your already childish argumentative skills.

 

Your final remark there is an example of these poorly realized skills. Show how this is cruel and unusual punishment. It's not pleasant for us to think about, and it may be "painful" for the fetus, but alive or not, it isn't yet sentient, it can't yet think even about instinctive things, and it doesn't understand pain. It's nerves simply react as they do when dealt pain. Cold and irrelevant. That's not even getting into Slinky's point of this not being a punishment.

 

I do so hope you stick around for this one; I'm interested to see you make an attempt to grow, if not as a person of reason, than one with reasonable ability to defend your position without resorting to loaded words or appeals to authority, as opposed to outright refusing to listen.

There's nothing to be ashamed of? It's there to inform. Nothing more or less. You draw your own conclusions 

 

If I could find a picture of a 19 week fetus that didn't reveal genitals I would post that too

 

The brain is actually active then, and the ultrasound shows the fetus reacting agonizingly to the pain

 

No point, y'all will never see eye to eye with me on this matter, and I don't want a rehash of the last topic. I've realized the best way to get my views out there is to send as much money as I can to these pro-life groups, not talk about it on a YGO forum. Just wanted to explain kasich's view point since most of y'all didn't know about the pay wall dodge

So fetuses can feel pain, but doctor's are still arguing on whether or not infants should be put under for scrotum clipping, because they're not sure if they feel pain or not?

 

?

they're wrong, and the methods of abortion go a little beyond "scrotum clipping"

[Dad]

There's nothing to be ashamed of? It's there to inform. Nothing more or less. You draw your own conclusions 

 

If I could find a picture of a 19 week fetus that didn't reveal genitals I would post that too

 

The brain is actually active then, and the ultrasound shows the fetus reacting agonizingly to the pain

 

No point, y'all will never see eye to eye with me on this matter, and I don't want a rehash of the last topic. I've realized the best way to get my views out there is to send as much money as I can to these pro-life groups, not talk about it on a YGO forum. Just wanted to explain kasich's view point since most of y'all didn't know about the pay wall dodge

they're wrong, and the methods of abortion go a little beyond "scrotum clipping"

 

So which is it Winter?  Festuses feel pain and infants don't?  Or vice versa?  And if you're suggesting scrotum snipping doesn't hurt, go ask the doctor to take a little off the top.  Stop being so dramatic and provide a logical argument over an emotional one.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So which is it Winter?  Festuses feel pain and infants don't?  Or vice versa?  And if you're suggesting scrotum snipping doesn't hurt, go ask the doctor to take a little off the top.  Stop being so dramatic and provide a logical argument over an emotional one.

They're wrong, infants do feel pain. I don't think scotum snipping should be done in the absence of a very good reason to do so (such as infection)

 

Also the procedures aren't the same, so you're trying to get me to compare apples and oranges 

[Dad]

They're wrong, infants do feel pain. I don't think scotum snipping should be done in the absence of a very good reason to do so (such as infection)

 

Also the procedures aren't the same, so you're trying to get me to compare apples and oranges 

 

No.  You're dodging.  The question is, and remains, why do infants feel pain and fetuses do not or vice versa?  The doctors can't be right and wrong Winter.  Stop edging around the question.

[Delibirb]

There's nothing to be ashamed of? It's there to inform. Nothing more or less. You draw your own conclusions 

I'm aware there's nothing to be ashamed of. I said you were using it to shame your opponents, not to inform anyone. The image has no information, it is a picture of a dead fetus. The use of the image, and your words regarding it, are an attempt to use an emotional argument, which is not only ineffective, but disgusting and childish. Would you like me to show you your wording so you can see?

 

Here's a look at the non-human that the Heartbeat bill would have saved. 

 

-snip-

 

10 weeks, 6 days.

 

Just a scientific look at #notahuman

 

Let's go one at a time.

 

You use the phrase non-human, even though you (and I) believe it is a human. This is an intentional jab at shaming your opponents for believing the image to not be of a human when it depicts a disgusting, unfinished, dead one.

 

That is how you are shaming, and that is why your argumentative abilities are atrocious not only in effectiveness but in practice.

 

You're also being, I suspect unintentionally, ridiculous. The image is not a scientific look at anything. It's a photograph with no data associated with it. There's a length of time the fetus was growing since conception, but that isn't anything scientific beyond science's ability to recognize growth patterns from decades of precedent. This is an emotional look at #notahuman, which you do use ironically, and thus also contributes nothing to the debate.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

If you're so confident in your stance, the picture should be nothing more than an informative mesure of what a typical fetus looks like at the period of the heartbeat bill's cut off

 

If you have no second thoughts, fine. If you do, that's also fine. Self Reflection isn't a bad thing. This whole shaming thing is stupid for reasons vla1ne pointed out in the old thread. Don't go through with something or support something if you aren't dead set on it

[Slinky]

Posting a picture of an aborted fetus during an abortion debate is the equivalent of posting a picture of a maimed corpse in a thread about a recent terror event.

 

It's skewful, completely irrelevant, and it's disturbing as all sheet regardless of which side of the debate you're on. I also doubt people actually care what a 6 week old fetus looks like anyway.

[Tentacruel]

Calm down.  As manipulative as it may be, it is what happens when abortions happen.  The fetus dies.

 

It's sure as funk not irrelevant if everyone freaks out about how gross it is.  

 

It's an emotional argument to be sure, but none of you have brought anything even remotely less useless to the conversation.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's pretty telling that while people are willing to back a position, y'all don't even have the stomach to gaze upon the results of your support.

Calm down.  As manipulative as it may be, it is what happens when abortions happen.  The fetus dies.

 

It's sure as funk not irrelevant if everyone freaks out about how gross it is.  

 

It's an emotional argument to be sure, but none of you have brought anything even remotely less useless to the conversation.

The point to be made is people callously dismiss positions when they're detached from it

Posting a picture of an aborted fetus during an abortion debate is the equivalent of posting a picture of a maimed corpse in a thread about a recent terror event.

 

It's skewful, completely irrelevant, and it's disturbing as all sheet regardless of which side of the debate you're on. I also doubt people actually care what a 6 week old fetus looks like anyway.

No slinky, it's asking for accountability from pro-choicers.

 

Look upon the fruits of your labor. 

 

You can feel free to send me stories about mothers who die from pregnancy complications due to strict abortion laws. I'm willing to accept that 

 

I see no fault in ethos arguments, if someone is defending terrorists while bits of kids lay all around the street, there's nothing wrong with calling them out on that sheet

[VCR_CAT]

If you support abortion you should be okay with seeing an unborn fetus

 

I'm sorry, I must've gotten lost and found the Miscellaneous section instead, do you know where Debates is?

 

Step off your high-horse dude, that's not an argument and you know it. Unless you have an actual point to make, posting a shocker image and not only trying to shame people for it but also generalizing everyone who even remotely disagreed with you is not only childish and ignorant, it's doing nothing to promote actual discussion. Oh, and also

 

 

You can feel free to send me stories about mothers who die from pregnancy complications due to strict abortion laws. I'm willing to accept that 

 

Yeah, I get you had a daughter who could've been aborted, but it's frickin' stupid to argue ethics and have your argument be:

 

"Abortion is bad because it's killing"

 

only to follow it up with

 

"I'm willing to accept mothers dying from pregnancy complications due to strict abortion laws."

 

I mean, really. If you're going to argue ethics, at least be frickin' consistent with your ethics and not just accepting anything at all so long as it lines up with your views. I get you have a personal connection to this, but in the last thread I spent a good amount of time explaining how removing abortion completely as an option for mothers is going to significantly mess up many lives. Either you didn't pay attention to that, or your ethics argument is a load of sheet and you lack complete empathy for any amount of people outside of your immediate circle of influence.

 

So please, tell me how it's consistent to ban abortion because it's killing but also accept that you're basically killing people who would need it to save their lives.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I'm sorry, I must've gotten lost and found the Miscellaneous section instead, do you know where Debates is?

 

Step off your high-horse dude, that's not an argument and you know it. Unless you have an actual point to make, posting a shocker image and not only trying to shame people for it but also generalizing everyone who even remotely disagreed with you is not only childish and ignorant, it's doing nothing to promote actual discussion. Oh, and also

 

 

 

Yeah, I get you had a daughter who could've been aborted, but it's frickin' stupid to argue ethics and have your argument be:

 

"Abortion is bad because it's killing"

 

only to follow it up with

 

"I'm willing to accept mothers dying from pregnancy complications due to strict abortion laws."

 

I mean, really. If you're going to argue ethics, at least be frickin' consistent with your ethics and not just accepting anything at all so long as it lines up with your views. I get you have a personal connection to this, but in the last thread I spent a good amount of time explaining how removing abortion completely as an option for mothers is going to significantly mess up many lives. Either you didn't pay attention to that, or your ethics argument is a load of sheet and you lack complete empathy for any amount of people outside of your immediate circle of influence.

 

So please, tell me how it's consistent to ban abortion because it's killing but also accept that you're basically killing people who would need it to save their lives.

>Calls people out for "shaming"

 

>Reportedly throws out words like bigot in debates

 

> Will likely call me a hypocrite before his post is over

 

>OK

 

---

 

It seems I need to spell everything out for you

 

The mortality rate among pregnant woman has dropped far below what it was in the days of Roe. The number of women who die from pregnancy complications, even in states with strict abortion laws doesn't come close to the # of abortions each year 

 

How is it consistent? I would sacrifice a life to save a 100

 

---

 

As for the image, the entire argument on the left is that it's not a shocker image. That's a parasite that just happened to living off the body of hapless woman. It's not like it's...gasp...human. What's the reason to be shocked? Would posting a picture of a excised tumor or tapeworm be a "shocker image" cause they're really no different here right?

 

---

 

The entire point about my daughter since you didn't seem to grasp that point either was 1) I was pro-choice 2) I was pushing for an abortion 3) people can change when they actually look beyond the abstract and realize the material consequences of their views and actions

 

Like for example, are you against new papers publishing pictures of Aleppo and shaming Obama, Putin, and Trump for sitting by? There's bits of kids in 4-5 directions with a blazing headline "Shame of the West"

 

Guess what, people are actually doing something about it now, because pathos works

 

---

 

At the end of the day, that image really should not bother you if you're firmly pro-choice. If it does bother you, some introspection might be in order

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

It's pretty telling that while people are willing to back a position, y'all don't even have the stomach to gaze upon the results of your support.

You know what else I don't want to look at? A video of almost any surgery that saves lives. Surgery is disgusting to look at. But it's not a bad thing. I still don't want to look at it though.

I can't see how you can think this "argument" holds any merit.

Edit: For the record that image kinda just makes me think of it less as a "person". It kinda looks like a Grey Alien or some frog-person thing

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You know what else I don't want to look at? A video of almost any surgery that saves lives. Surgery is disgusting to look at. But it's not a bad thing. I still don't want to look at it though.

I can't see how you can think this "argument" holds any merit.

Idk, maybe the same way judges have to go sit in on executions they sign off on?

 

You looking through pics of surgery for shits and giggles is different than you putting your hands on a matter of life* and death. And being unwilling to see what death looks like.

 

A more apt comparison might be if you were actually doing the surgery yourself or were influential in deciding weather the surgery should be done. Furthermore the abortion is the end product, the surgery is not. It's a nice try, but you comparing an intermediate to product just because of the share "gore" factor isn't a meritful stance

 

*Or from the left's view, just life (since you can't kill what was never alive lolololol)

[Sunshine Jesse]

stuff

looks more like a piece of shrimp than a human tbh

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

looks more like a piece of shrimp than a human tbh

See this is OK, you're seemingly not bothered by abortion, and you're seemingly not bothered by the aborted fetus

 

You aren't a hypocritical coward

 

Just like you mentioned it's pretty hard to find a consistent pro-lifer, it's pretty hard to find a consistent pro-choicer. I have to have some respect for you in that degree, even if I disagree with your position 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Idk, the same way judges have to go sit in on executions they sign off on?

 

You looking through pics of surgery for shits and giggles is different than you putting your hands on a matter of life and death

 

Or from the left's view, just life (since you can't kill what was never alive lolololol)

You're not getting the point.

I don't find it disgusting because of what is happening. I find it disgusting because it looks disgusting. Like surgery pictures.

But yet again no point arguing because "sit in on executions they sign off on" in my perspective this isn't an "execution"

 

OMG YES SHRIMP THAT'S IT

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You're not getting the point.

I don't find it disgusting because of what is happening. I find it disgusting because it looks disgusting. Like surgery pictures.

But yet again no point arguing because "sit in on executions they sign off on" in my perspective this isn't an "execution"

 

OMG YES SHRIMP THAT'S IT

In that case, it's not "shaming you"

 

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with a shame argument, because if you were sincere to your convictions you wouldn't be ashamed or getting all uppity about underhanded tactics

 

---

 

Actually there's a point to be made if you're turned off by the looks too, but it's a weak one given you reject the "it's a person" premise 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

In that case, it's not "shaming you"

 

I'm saying there's nothing wrong with a shame argument, because if you were sincere to your convictions you wouldn't be ashamed or getting all uppity about underhanded tactics

I'm not ashamed but it is an attempt to shame. And that doesn't make sense. That basically means squeamish people aren't allowed certain opinions.

Disgust and discomfort are natural human reactions to strange and unfamiliar things.

Using instinctive reactions as a justification for your side in something as important as this is a poor tactic that is honestly irrelevant in the long run.