How Can Konami Improve the Yu-Gi-Oh! Experience?

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357447712' post='6112529']
Well I'm glad there's been some feedback. Just try to be polite and considerate in your discussion. Nobody here's perfect, and it doesn't help anyone to devolve your comments to personal attacks.

As for you...
[/quote]

Thank you for making my day.

[SzayelAporro]

Yup, just cause you're a mod doesn't mean to go and act like you know everything...

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

I stopped reading when you said you thought T.G.s were creative.

[Sora1499]

[quote name='SzayelAporro' timestamp='1357461180' post='6112668']
Yup, just cause you're a mod doesn't mean to go and act like you know everything...
[/quote]
Except, Black is right, and asianguy is blatantly wrong.

[AsianGuy1137]

[quote name='Borderline Unplayable' timestamp='1357480718' post='6112854']
I stopped reading when you said you thought T.G.s were creative.[/quote]
Except I never said that so yo clearly have problems with reading comprehension or you're just too lazy to bother reading at all.

Black's being a petulant and plainly disrespectful jackass, and I've thoroughly responded to all of his "points" so how yo guys can still be so blindly ignorant is beyond me. Just another quality of YCM sheep I guess.

[Shradow]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357491594' post='6113015']
Except I never said that
[/quote]

Him: [color=#9BA2A9][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I can't take this point seriously at all anymore, because you seem to think T.G. 2.0 and Glads are remotely creative.[/size][/font][/color]
You: [color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Yes, I believe that they are exactly that.[/size][/font][/color]

[AsianGuy1137]

[quote name='Shradow' timestamp='1357492296' post='6113027']
Him: [color=#9BA2A9][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]I can't take this point seriously at all anymore, because you seem to think T.G. 2.0 and Glads are remotely creative.[/size][/font][/color]
You: [color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3]Yes, I believe that they are exactly that.[/size][/font][/color]
[/quote]
So by your logic, Fire Fists are T.G. 2.0 and therefore exactly the same as the original? You might want to read the rest of the response in which I say how they're remotely creative in the sense that their design is tolerable. Learning how to read is a valuable life skill.

[Susie]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357491594' post='6113015']
Except I never said that so yo clearly have problems with reading comprehension or you're just too lazy to bother reading at all.

Black's being a petulant and plainly disrespectful jackass, and I've thoroughly responded to all of his "points" so how yo guys can still be so blindly ignorant is beyond me. Just another quality of YCM sheep I guess.
[/quote]

Honestly, you should really read what you say
Because you did say that

[AsianGuy1137]

[quote name='Aphex Twin' timestamp='1357492665' post='6113035']
Honestly, you should really read what you say
Because you did say that[/quote]
Or maybe you can actually learn to read and make counter arguments instead of just posting videos and think they actually mean something. But I wouldn't expect that much effort out of people like you on YCM.

[Aerion Brightflame]

Ok. So you think it's a good idea to try and take the high ground, then insult people for having a shared opinion with black by calling them 'sheep'? Very smart there. And dude, if you don't like the forum and the people on it, do everyone a favour and go, rather than act like you are better.

OT: Konami can't improve the game any further, because it's reaching a dying stage, where only the competitive players have a chance of playing the game in reality, and that the power creep is hardly being hidden.

Without deciding to reset the entire game, there is nothing they can do to fix the gaming experience anymore. So they are pretty much just going to milk it for the moneys.

[Susie]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357492777' post='6113039']
Or maybe you can actually learn to read and make counter arguments instead of just posting videos and think they actually mean something. But I wouldn't expect that much effort out of people like you on YCM.
[/quote]

If you don't like the way people are here then don't even bother posting
And how many counter arguments have already been posted
You're not all high and mighty and nobody is on your side

[Aix]

[quote name='Overlord Barty' timestamp='1357492970' post='6113042']
Ok. So you think it's a good idea to try and take the high ground, then insult people for having a shared opinion with black by calling them 'sheep'? Very smart there. And dude, if you don't like the forum and the people on it, do everyone a favour and go, rather than act like you are better.

OT: Konami can't improve the game any further, because it's reaching a dying stage, where only the competitive players have a chance of playing the game in reality, and that the power creep is hardly being hidden.

Without deciding to reset the entire game, there is nothing they can do to fix the gaming experience anymore. So they are pretty much just going to milk it for the moneys.
[/quote]
They really should reset it all, though I doubt that's going to happen.

[Shradow]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357492777' post='6113039']But I wouldn't expect that much effort out of people like you on YCM.
[/quote]

I doubt many people on earth would waste any serious amount of effort on you.

[ihop]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357491594' post='6113015']
Except I never said that so yo clearly have problems with reading comprehension or you're just too lazy to bother reading at all.

Black's being a petulant and plainly disrespectful jackass, and I've thoroughly responded to all of his "points" so how yo guys can still be so blindly ignorant is beyond me. Just another quality of YCM sheep I guess.
[/quote]

Have you ever considered the possibility of being wrong?

[AsianGuy1137]

[quote name='Overlord Barty' timestamp='1357492970' post='6113042']
Ok. So you think it's a good idea to try and take the high ground, then insult people for having a shared opinion with black by calling them 'sheep'? Very smart there. And dude, if you don't like the forum and the people on it, do everyone a favour and go, rather than act like you are better.
OT: Konami can't improve the game any further, because it's reaching a dying stage, where only the competitive players have a chance of playing the game in reality, and that the power creep is hardly being hidden.
Without deciding to reset the entire game, there is nothing they can do to fix the gaming experience anymore. So they are pretty much just going to milk it for the moneys.[/quote]
Insulting them for what? Giving me one line responses that really don't say anything except say that Black is right and I'm wrong without giving any form of support for that assertion? Yes, I think it might be appropriate in this case.

[quote name='Kettleblack' timestamp='1357493178' post='6113050']
Have you ever considered the possibility of being wrong?[/quote]
Of course I have, and I've even said that my analysis for the first point might be wrong, but I need more substantial arguments over than lol Black is you're wrong, look at all these counter arguments of which there have been none so far.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

This thread is getting utterly pointless right now. This has degraded into a +1 argue fest. Somebody lock this so we can move on, thank you.

OT: Welcome to yugioh, where the power creep makes things similar.

[.Rai]

You know, it's not as if he's entirely wrong. I can see the merit in implementing points 4-6. In the case of 4-5, it's not even a specification, but the issue being brought up is a very real one.

[The Hounds Of Anubis]

Thing is, some of us just agree with Black and disagree with you.

[Blake]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357447712' post='6112529']
[color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Oh, you're gonna point out how stupid an idea is by pointing out how much it enables fast-paced matches where the game is more likely to be determined by the luck of drawing your starting hand than making it better paced and more resilient to ridiculous combo spams and OTKs? How insightful.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[b]Psst. VANGUARD IS FASTER THAN YUGIOH. At that, how does the extra deck make luck a more obvious factor? And some people actually enjoy the speed of the game, because it's inbetween MTG and CFV.[/b]


[color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Yes, I believe that they are exactly that. Remotely creative in the strictest sense of the phrase - they're tolerable designs. As for your so-called irony, when was the last time the Thunder pseudo-archetype was competitively viable? Sure, it's good at making generic Rank 4 Xyzs, but so are Constellars and Evilswarms. So it doesn't auto-conform to the destruction aspect of the generic competitive archetype formula, does that mean it's creative just because of that? What about the generic Xyz spamming? Now, I personally think it's fine as it is, but more creative ways to formulate archetypes must exist besides use search card (Thunder Seahorse) to get components to spam the field with Recycling Batteries to continue the formula. As for Spellbooks, I will admit they are quite flavorful, but the entire basis of the archetype revolves around spamming Junon. Without her, the deck would not be nearly as competitively viable as it is. Still, for what it does, the archetype is a good representation of what exists, which doesn't actually contradict my point. If you actually utilize some reading comprehension or maybe just common sense, you might realize that the specific examples I mentioned are becoming more prevalent in the competitive circuit which doesn't necessarily exclude the presence of archetypes which do not conform to the aforementioned generic formulas. The Prophecy archetype is one of them, but the competitive scene has become dominated but the aforementioned archetypes that do conform to said formulas. As for Geargias, they essentially do what every consistent archetype aspires to with absolutely no creative design behind them. Have a generic searcher, have a generic spammer that can retrieve a card when sent from field to grave, have a generic summoner, and have a generic built-in monster reborn. Do try harder to come up with a better example next time, will you?[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[b]First off, they are not remotely creative. Firefists are TG 2.0 and Glad Beasts are one of the least creative archetypes in the game. They're Battle Phase and Spam centric with a bunch of popping effects. They were basically Synchros/Xyz before Synchros/Xyz. AS for the examples, why do I have to supply ones you believe are "Better"? Especially when you don't even give the Fool and the Reaper the credit they deserve in Prophecies, which basically wrecks your defence of them. Hunders are somewhat competitive, though they are, indeed, Also, what Monster Reborn do Geargias have? Oh, right, shitty things that negate effects and in no way aid the deck or its goal. You also don't seem to understand how Hunders work either, how Geargias are extremely cohesive with other machines (A type specific thing you seem to want), how Spellbooks basically don't even work with other Spellcasters, how GB are a mess of ignoring types themselves, and how Fire Fists are just spam and search, though you at least seem to somewhat understand the last one.

[color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]You seem to not understand that archetypes actually have become quite stale and do a lot of the same things under different names. How exactly does this refute my claim that there should be a hierarchical divison of Attribute encomposing the main principles, types encomposing subsidiary themes, and archetypes perhaps encomposing a specific manifestation of that theme? No sir, again, your reading comprehension fails or you're being intentionally petulant.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[b]I really don't see how they all destroy and can summon a good deal- Okay? If it works, don't break it. I don't even like the current designs they use on cards like Fire Fists, Fire Kigns (Who follow a Nepthys/Scrap idea), Inzektors, Atlanteans especially, and other recent cards. I'm not defending that, at all. But just because all archetypes have the ability to destroy and summon monsters (Remember, Yugioh is a game centered on boss monsters, generally) doesn't mean they're stale. Inzektors do have a similar feel to Fire Fists, burning Knucklers feel extremely generic, but all the others at least have a unique angle to attack the game with.[/b]

[color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Oh yes, generalize more, will you? If you haven't found good designs, it's either because you're not looking hard enough, generalize all designs based on the poor designs of some, possibly even most, while disregarding the rest, or are just bad at judging these things. I cannot name exact designs off the top of my head, but I do remember seeing some creative designs through the years here. Agro does have some realistic and, at times, even balanced designs. I'm sure there are many others out there too, but I do not have a good enough memory to fully list all the others nor do I have the time to go through each with thoughtful critique. If you missed that, it's your fault.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[b]>Aggro
>Good enough designs
wat

Aggro's not that bad, but he is still not a great card maker. I'm one of the moderators of Custom Cards, so I've seen just about everything YCM has to offer. They're never great design and almost always take editing to make it well designed, and people here tend to make cards that kinda suck once balanced. People here don't understand what good design and balance are, in general. Can you find a diamond in the roguh? Sure, but the majority of fans are God awful at card design. That's not generalization, that's just speaking on the majority. Also, one of the better cardmakers made a searcher for Gorz, via dumping itself, that then revives itself when Gorz comes out to make a Rank 7. That's... "good" here.[/b]

[color=#FF0000][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Why you ask? Toons are technically a subtype in the same sense the Geminis and Unions are subtypes, even if they weren't originally intended to be a subtype. They were created in the early days of the game where the idea of introducing archetypes and new subtypes were still not completely distinct. Toons might have been a bad example for this reason, but Geminis and Unions appropriately characterize the idea of introducing a new gameplay mechanic for monsters in the form of the subtype. Konami went through the trouble of introducing the subtypes and their respective mechanics into the game, and I expect that to be because they want to implement new ideas, perhaps experiment with creative outlets that could potentially increase the enjoyment of the game for the players. Although they were made with the good intention of introducing something new and exciting, the subtypes have failed to accomplish that. Yes, they are not meant to be playable together in the same sense that an archetype is. Yes, they should exist in standalone varieties as to maximize their range of playability rather than reduce them to a specific design and playing niche like archetypes often are, but the fact that VERY few of them can be considered playable at all is what distresses me. If there were more Geminis and Unions that were playable in general, then I'd say the introduction of these new subtypes wasn't a complete waste of time. Your next comment seems to suggest some level of agreement so at least you're sensible enough to understand this point.[/background][/size][/font][/color]
[b]The subtypes never went anywhere. Konami saw that, and either made badly designed ones (Gearframe) or just stopped making them altogether. No one will play Gemini.dek, and Geminis, in general, are way too slow to be of use. It goes from balancing them to making them nearly unplayable, sans Spark and Supervise. Unions are also a silly mechanic that relies on supporting cards in a deck, and it's much more convenient to players and Konami alike to make it more like Dragunity and Inzektors if you wanna equip monsters to monsters. It has much fewer clauses, allows multiple equips. and so on. Why would they revisit a bad old gimmick when they can do it better without the gimmick? And even then, they're not completely archetypal if you can equip them otehrwise, ie Cyberdarks and Dragunities. It's not that great, neccesarily, but allows for more development in the future. Equips are a very fine line, can't say much more there. Things like Assault Armor and Rod of Silence - Kay'est are good, while Axe of Despair and such are really, really bad.[/b]



[color=#9F9F9F][font=tahoma, helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)][color=#FF0000]Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, I will swear to uphold your indisputably supreme ideals in everything I endeavor! Sarcasm aside, your critiques were rather misconstrued or just simply just poorly constructed. Your attitude is conceinted and bluntly rude, and the way you convey yourself does nothing to warrant any respect for yourself or represent the proper conduct moderators should aspire to. Now, if you have nothing useful to say, I suggest you leave this topic and never return. Have a nice day, or not, I couldn't care less.[/color][/background][/size][/font][/color]

[/quote]
You think I'm... conceited? That's really, really rich. Anyone who actually knows me knows I'm anything but full of myself. Being confident on a subject in no way means someone is conceited.

[AsianGuy1137]

Thank you for being the first to actually make a counter response and being mature about it. Even if you are a great mod or person in general, my first impression of you was solely based on attitude, but that could change. I will make a response to your above points sometime later today.

[Althemia]

1) This doesn't really make sense. You say that archetypes need a way of being able to plus in a creative way, but then proceed to point out some of the most boring decks in the game design wise. If you were to point out archetypes that were actually interesting in spammability and such (Like Phantom Beastcraft), then maybe this point would be more viable. However, this point seems to just completely backfire on itself because of the lack of good example to be used.

2) Konami has been adding the support for Types and Attributes to try and put them at a distinction from each other lately. As you can see from the latest sets (Abyss Rising, Lord of the Tachyon Galaxy, etc), they have been adding themes to attributes in an attempt to give them a uniqueness that many individuals will find more appealing and may make more decks. LIGHT banish, DARK send to the Graveyard, EARTH are moreso lockdown, WATER is card advantage control, WIND is board control and FIRE is burn. This has been established from the Spiritual Arts and the Elemental Lords.

3) Bad idea. Really bad idea, just because choosing the best of the worst seems like an awful idea.

4) Can't say anything on this. Don't know the MtG rarity system.

5) Seems too much of a burden for Konami to do since the Yu-Gi-Oh! Community would be introduced with a mechanic which would just give them a reason to up their pack prices and make the game a little bit more expensive. It's why they decided against it for Cardfight. That and lack of support for the card game from stores, but still.

6) They probably won't introduce any new sub-types, so this isn't really an issue

[AsianGuy1137]

I personally think Glads had an innovative mechanic. They really can't spam as much or get in much destruction aside from successfully landing Bestiari while there's another Glad on the field. Fire Fists have an interesting idea in interacting with continuous S/T, even if the design wasn't the best way to implement the concept.

There have been CAC contests before in the past. I think it's worth trying out because we as players are constantly exposed to the elements of the game in action and might therefore have a good understanding of what might need to change, and I believe that the cards designed could at least be as good as the ones Konami makes which is to say that they will at least be as broken, unbalanced, generic or useless as the ones that have been made. The LCCG has some pretty good designers, and it's been a pleasure playing purely with the CCG cards.

[Aerion Brightflame]

[quote name='AsianGuy1137' timestamp='1357493221' post='6113052']
Insulting them for what? Giving me one line responses that really don't say anything except say that Black is right and I'm wrong without giving any form of support for that assertion? Yes, I think it might be appropriate in this case.
[/quote]

So the basis for you is insulting people for having either the same opinion as Black in many cases, or just pointing out a flaw in your long post that defeats the entire argument in the case of Chris's one.

Why would people spend half an hour or so writing there opinions on a matter when it was already summed up by someone? It's just something people do to have the limited time we have.

And whilst true, I can't defend all the posts in the thread, and some of them are rather pointless I admit , that's not a valid reason to insult someone. I mean, have you ever been to an internet forum before this one? If you have you'd see that this is actually quite a mature level of response. If you don't like that, then maybe the internet isn't for you.

It still doesn't change that you have acted like you are superior to people on the site during a good number of your posts. Which you haven't earned the right to do frankly.

OT: Did I mention that the power creep itself is reaching a stage where only further power creeping in each subsequent released set can actually get people to buy the product, meaning each set that gets released kills the game a little more. And Konami, because this is still a business are going to keep doing that to actually keep the game profitable.

It doesn't matter what ideals for the game the players have, money matters more to them.

Fire Fists I will admit were balanced before the release of the Chicken, and Wolfberk. And it was a step in the right direction, but Konami couldn't leave them be. Glad's were an extra deck before it was an extra deck. And to my knowledge don't they have 3 different destruction cards, all of which can be returned to the deck either by there tagging, or by Glad's huge amount of graveyard recycling? Not to mention all the various negating cards they have. They have an awful lot of destruction really.

[Aix]

What I do agree with is having each archetype actually doing something different, using a different mechanic to operate and having a principle theme.

What is okay or good:
- Prophecies, IMO, were a good design if they did not just spam Junon.
- Fire Fists, I'm not too knowledgeable about other TCGs, but the Fire Dances seem like MTG Emblems? Anyway, they introduced the way of having active (emblems) Continuous Spell/Traps that provided stat boosts and it was good that they then had effects that sacrificed those stat boosts in order to activate. You also had to think extra when facing them, being wary of that face-down Trap. The execution may be bad, however.
- Phantom Beastcraft, I don’t really see what’s wrong with them. They also require thought and having Tokens may actually hinder you as you no longer have the right level for the monster you want OR you have too many goddamn tokens, so that requires some thought.

Tried and failed for new mechanics:
- Wind-Ups were supposed to be cool that their effects can only activate once, but they really are just a generic swarming archetype.
- Lightsworns were cool that they sent to the Graveyard, but ended up simply being generic beatsticks who then spammed Judgment Dragon. And then, they simply became an engine for Chaos Dragons.
- Inzektors were cool to use an Equip... but they failed because it just simply became a once-per-turn effect, technically saying "if you have Hornet in your hand or Graveyard: Once per turn, you can destroy 1 card on the field AND Special Summon another monster which can do another of this effect" and were too obvious about its cheapness. It would have been better if they made Hornet banish itself and then you have to find a way to bring it back.
- Glads... they had a cool idea, it seemed at first, however, the effect couldn’t have much freedom, much variation, and their effects were generic, thus, they failed.
- Dragunity, pretty much an Inzektor prototype that sorta failed.
- Gishki’s were cool that they tried removing their opponent’s hand and graveyard advantage... but there is no relevance between Ritual Summoning and that. They should’ve simply done a beatdown archetype with a very much contained and restrained way to remove their opponent’s hand and grave advantage.
- Madolches are almost like generic swarm, except they simply made swarming hard to balance out the fact that the boss was OP. They were cool, but then, you realize they are a one-trick pony.


They didn't even try, only one of these archetypes in existence would have been fine, but they simply made copies of the same thing.
- Atlanteans, Dark Worlds, Fire Kings, Inzektors, Hieratics. Why does Inzektors pop up here? Because the design is so terrible that it became similar to these. What do all of these have in common here? They are all like “pay this cost for an awesome effect, but it isn’t actually a cost, it actually benefits you to do this, but we are going to call it a cost”. The first time this happens, its fine cuz it hasn’t been done before, but these cards are all the same and they are generic because they all do more or less the same thing.

At least, this is how I see things here. What they need is more new game mechanics.

[.Rai]

[quote name='☯AixDivadis☯' timestamp='1357495817' post='6113110']
- Fire Fists, I'm not too knowledgeable about other TCGs, but the Fire Dances seem like MTG Emblems? Anyway, they introduced the way of having active (emblems) Continuous Spell/Traps that provided stat boosts and it was good that they then had effects that sacrificed those stat boosts in order to activate. You also had to think extra when facing them, being wary of that face-down Trap. The execution may be bad, however.
[/quote]

Trust me when I say Fire Dances are entirely unrelated to emblems.