Time Seal

[ihop]

...

 

Anyway, This card should stay banned. It wouldn't be fun :(

 

This post pretty much sums up this entire thread.

[Agro]

Because Solitare decks are boring to play against. That's all, we like feeling like doing more than sitting there watching your opponent plays. And Jar of Greed increase interaction, because it gives you a card. A card through which you can interact with the opponent. Where as Time Seal instead can remove any interaction, by denying cards through which to do that. I admit it's sketchy logic at best, but it's enough of a distinction for most people here.

Jar of Greed doesn't increase player interaction. Please don't muddle our side's argument with bad points.

The point should be that while they both don't increase player interaction, only Time Seal tries to blatantly attack it.

[~British Soul~]

...

 

Anyway, This card should stay banned. It wouldn't be fun :(

Wiser words have never been spoken.

[Expelsword]

I'm kind of getting tired of threads where Trooper makes a thread about a banned card that's not going to be unbanned and everyone beats him up for it, honestly.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Because Solitare decks are boring to play against. That's all, we like feeling like doing more than sitting there watching your opponent plays. And Jar of Greed increase interaction, because it gives you a card. A card through which you can interact with the opponent. Where as Time Seal instead can remove any interaction, by denying cards through which to do that. I admit it's sketchy logic at best, but it's enough of a distinction for most people here.

 

I could make a "solitaire deck" that's designed to lose and not have any player interaction either. I could make a deck full of the weakest vanilla monsters which would be impossible to win with. There would be no player interaction and no fun. So all crap cards should be banned for allowing that to be possible? If a card is used in a crap deck or is just a plain crap/average card, it doesn't freaking matter, because no-one will use it anyway. Don't say "it can make a deck that's unfun to play against". Fun is subjective, and there are literally millions of ways to do that already, and nobody wants them banned, because they just aren't good.

 

Time Seal does not "decrease player interaction" either, contrary to Agro's beliefs. It doesn't stop you from playing the game normally, it doesn't FTK you, it doesn't OTK you, it doesn't increase first turn advantage, it doesn't do anything spectacular at all. You skip 1 draw phase, which your opponent gave up as well, then continue your turn as per normal being able to do everything you normally would. And voila, the game is still it's usual self. Both players can still interact with everything else they have. It's literally just a pure 1-for-1, at a delay. It's like MST'ing a facedown during the End Phase, but even less useful.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

If a card is used in a crap deck or is just a plain crap/average card, it doesn't freaking matter, because no-one will use it anyway.

Someone will, most likely a troll.

 

And this attacks player-to-player interaction in a very negative way (like it matters at this point though since Konami has scrapped "balance" and "healthy card making" for the sake of profit).

[Sleepy]

I could make a "solitaire deck" that's designed to lose and not have any player interaction either. I could make a deck full of the weakest vanilla monsters which would be impossible to win with. There would be no player interaction and no fun. So all crap cards should be banned for allowing that to be possible? If a card is used in a crap deck or is just a plain crap/average card, it doesn't freaking matter, because no-one will use it anyway. Don't say "it can make a deck that's unfun to play against". Fun is subjective, and there are literally millions of ways to do that already, and nobody wants them banned, because they just aren't good.

 

Time Seal does not "decrease player interaction" either, contrary to Agro's beliefs. It doesn't stop you from playing the game normally, it doesn't FTK you, it doesn't OTK you, it doesn't increase first turn advantage, it doesn't do anything spectacular at all. You skip 1 draw phase, which your opponent gave up as well, then continue your turn as per normal being able to do everything you normally would. And voila, the game is still it's usual self. Both players can still interact with everything else they have. It's literally just a pure 1-for-1, at a delay. It's like MST'ing a facedown during the End Phase, but even less useful.

Vanillas are either bad just for their owner if used that way (which no one in their right mind will do and expect to win something with it anyways), or cleverly implemented as key cards for a certain deck's gameplay (Blue Eyes, Hyeratics, Rabbit, Advance Ritual Art, etc). They are never a negative aspect on itself to the opponent. The ideal scenario in a Duel is that you be able to take the lead, have the opponent be able to come back and even try to take the lead, and try to outplay that opponent every step of the way.

 

Time Seal will be at most midly annoying most of the time it's randomly used, but when played right, it's only non-useless difference is that your opponent won't have that "comeback". In top-decking mode it's not about you giving a 1 for 1, but having the equivalent to skip an opponent's turn. If that's it's only non-neutral use, that's bad (unlike vanillas), and that's the argument of the prosecution in this thread. Pretty much everyone understands your argument, what they are saying is that the reason of it's ban is not inside those reasons, but they are laying elsewhere.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Vanillas are either bad just for their owner if used that way (which no one in their right mind will do and expect to win something with it anyways), or cleverly implemented as key cards for a certain deck's gameplay (Blue Eyes, Hyeratics, Rabbit, Advance Ritual Art, etc). They are never a negative aspect on itself to the opponent. The ideal scenario in a Duel is that you be able to take the lead, have the opponent be able to come back and even try to take the lead, and try to outplay that opponent every step of the way.

 

Time Seal will be at most midly annoying most of the time it's randomly used, but when played right, it's only non-useless difference is that your opponent won't have that "comeback". In top-decking mode it's not about you giving a 1 for 1, but having the equivalent to skip an opponent's turn. If that's it's only non-neutral use, that's bad (unlike vanillas), and that's the argument of the prosecution in this thread. Pretty much everyone understands your argument, what they are saying is that the reason of it's ban is not inside those reasons, but they are laying elsewhere.

 

That "comeback" reason is BS. In that scenario, there are many legal cards which would achieve the same thing as Time Seal, like Solemn Judgment negating any attempt at "coming back" the opponent had, and said cards are also better at other times throughout the duel. Drastic Drop Off and Drop Off would also do the same thing in the vast majority of cases, yet no-one runs either of those either, because overall, they are bad, just like Time Seal. I also find it hypocritical how people here want to do things like ban Reborn for allowing comebacks when top decked, yet they seem to think it's fine that 1 card the opponent top decks here should be able to magically turn the game around while the opponent is in a dominant position and has Time Seal. If you're in a top decking position against an established field of your opponents, you've lost regardless. Time Seal was then nothing more than a hindrance for the deck in the winning position because it could have been something else which would have helped the deck achieve said position better and faster. That's why nothing serious about winning would run it.

 

And you missed the point with the Vanilla.dek analogy. It was to show that you can always build skilless, non-interactive decks. A card being "non-interactive" (which already has a very loose definition, if any) is not a reason for it to be banned, or else the forbidden section would need to be miles long. If a card simply isn't powerful enough to be banned, it shouldn't be, simple as that. Time Seal is not a very good card, and thus has no good reason to be banned.

[Sleepy]

That "comeback" reason is BS. In that scenario, there are many legal cards which would achieve the same thing as Time Seal, like Solemn Judgment negating any attempt at "coming back" the opponent had, and said cards are also better at other times throughout the duel. Drastic Drop Off and Drop Off would also do the same thing in the vast majority of cases, yet no-one runs either of those either, because overall, they are bad, just like Time Seal. I also find it hypocritical how people here want to do things like ban Reborn for allowing comebacks when top decked, yet they seem to think it's fine that 1 card the opponent top decks here should be able to magically turn the game around while the opponent is in a dominant position and has Time Seal. If you're in a top decking position against an established field of your opponents, you've lost regardless. Time Seal was then nothing more than a hindrance for the deck in the winning position because it could have been something else which would have helped the deck achieve said position better and faster. That's why nothing serious about winning would run it.

Drastic Drop Off and Drop Off aren't even comparable to Time Seal. They limit themselves to activating at the moment your opponent draws, and allow your opponent to have Graveyard. We all know how many decks like Graveyards.

Solemn Judgment I don't personally really like either, so yeah. Though Solemn at least DOES save your ass at times, which is more than can be said of Time Seal, which is the argument you've been evading for a while. How about answering Miror B's post? 

 

And you missed the point with the Vanilla.dek analogy. It was to show that you can always build skilless, non-interactive decks. A card being "non-interactive" (which already has a very loose definition, if any) is not a reason for it to be banned, or else the forbidden section would need to be miles long. If a card simply isn't powerful enough to be banned, it shouldn't be, simple as that. Time Seal is not a very good card, and thus has no good reason to be banned.

You seem to not understand the message I tried to give by finding the holes in the vanilla analogy. Vanillas are mostly considered crap (neutral), but the few uses they have are decent, fun, and overall not negative. Time Seal has that negative use, and a bunch of crap (neutral) uses. I'd like to see an analogy that meets that, too, or it'll be an innacurate comparison.

 

By that reasoning, Heavy Storm is powerful enough to be banned, so it should be, simple as that. No game state-encouraging BS reason would really be able to justify it's still been limited if that was all there was to a list.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Think of it like this: Dustshoot was "Your opponent has one less card in the hand." You get to look at your opponent's hand for silly Mind Crush shenanigans and strategy, but ultimately, your opponent lost a card. This card is also "Your opponent has one less card in the hand." You may not get to look at your opponent's hand or be able to get rid of something already there, but this can be played at any time and this laughs at MST or similar backrow destruction. Even with as much destructive power Decks have, what they can do is sometimes finite and taking the bait can prevent them from going around your more dangerous traps, like Judgment or TT. This card also has the chance to be a "Skip your opponent's turn" on a player who has a dead hand or no hand, if they happen to be so unfortunate, and could prevent a losing player from lucking out on a notorious topdecking god move and set a loss in stone. These moves are virtually as evil as Solemn'ing the losing player's topdecked Hyperion when said losing player has nothing else to help try to win. Sure, the Drop Off cards do the same thing, but your opponent still has one less card in the Deck and the card that got sent to the Graveyard could be useful this turn rather than next turn. It gives the feeling that the game is still going somewhere by the mere thrill of moving a card rather than not doing so.

 

This doesn't exactly skip your own Draw Phase, either. You have one less card in your Deck, have the chance to bait destruction, and you still get something you can activate and put on the field, as opposed to getting absolutely nothing. It's almost the same, but not exactly. /pointlessclosingstatement

[newhat]

http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=1856

[Superdoopertrooper]

http://yugioh.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=1856

 

Your point?

 

And the thing is, virtually no deck in history ever played Time Seal. If it were that great, wouldn't everyone have been playing it? There was a janky deck involving Mask/Seal/Tsuk, but it was pretty bad then, and is utterly terrible now. Some other banned cards weren't played much in the past either like Cold Wave, but they became better over time with the introduction of new directions in the game. Time Seal, however, hasn't changed at all, and has arguably gotten worse now that decks main functions are so crucial.

[Miror B]

If it were that great,

STOP NOW.

Show me in this thread where the hell people called it "Great".

The argument is that Time Seal is either a win more card or a lock down loop card. Terrible or not.

It does literally nothing else. If it came back it wouldn't improve anything in the game. It doesn't counter some big deck, it doesn't boost weaker decks, it just does the above. Even if it's terrible nowadays, it has no use existing and it's only uses should not exist in the first place.

[Superdoopertrooper]

STOP NOW.

Show me in this thread where the hell people called it "Great".

 

Show me where I said anyone else called it "Great". I was merely saying that it is a generic card that any deck can theoretically play, yet no decent deck ever did or would, which says a lot about its actual power and playability.

 

The argument is that Time Seal is either a win more card or a lock down loop card. Terrible or not. It does literally nothing else.

 

And that argument is incorrect because Time Seal isn't just a win more or lock down loop card either. Sometimes it can be just a plain awful card, such as when you topdeck it, draw it when in a losing position, or don't draw it with the cards you are foolishly trying to combo it with. That goes for any and all decks running it. And it doesn't literally do nothing else. The fact that it is generic means that there's nothing stopping you from splashing it in any of your decks and being able to use it to plus off your opponents blind 1-for-1 destruction.

 

If it came back it wouldn't improve anything in the game.

 

If thousand-eyes idol was banned, bringing it back wouldn't improve anything in the game either, and would thus remain forever banned under that awful, backwards way of thinking. And you could argue anyway that Time Seal does slightly "improve" the game so to speak, by increasing the number of average powered cards in the card pool you can choose from, and gives you another way to plus off reckless blind destruction.

 

It doesn't counter some big deck

 

Why should it have to? That's another stupid reason. Injection Fairy Lily was once banned, she didn't counter some big deck, so she wouldn't have returned either by your backwards way of thinking.

 

It doesn't boost weaker decks.

 

Again, why should it have to? And it actually does boost weaker decks, such as decks running Tsuk + Mask (which are practically extinct by today's standards).

 

Even if it's terrible nowadays, it has no use existing and it's only uses should not exist in the first place.

It is indeed quite sub-par now (and always has been), and that is one of many, many reasons why it is a laughable card to have banned. The "has no use existing" argument is almost as bad as your other fallacious arguments before, because it can applied to any other crap card in the game.

[L0SS]

The "has no use existing" argument is almost as bad as your other fallacious arguments before, because it can applied to any other crap card in the game.

 

But that in no way cheapens the argument. The fact of the matter is, there is no reason to bring this card back. No one likes it, no one wants it; and sure maybe it wouldn't see much use, but it would make the few duels that use it irritating and lacking to play against. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

You seem to want to bring it back for the sake of it. Either that or you're trying to stir up controversy.

[Superdoopertrooper]

But that in no way cheapens the argument. The fact of the matter is, there is no reason to bring this card back. No one likes it, no one wants it; and sure maybe it wouldn't see much use, but it would make the few duels that use it irritating and lacking to play against. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

It does cheapen the argument, it shouldn't even be used as one. And no, that's not the fact of the matter at all. There is a reason to bring this card back, and that reason is the same as the reason for why virtually all the other unbanned cards in the game are unbanned; it isn't powerful enough to be banned. Time Seal is not a very powerful card, neither on its own or in tandem with other cards. Such cards have absolutely no place in the Forbidden section.

 

And you don't know who likes it, or who wants it, and neither of those things should have any bearing anyway. How the heck would it make duels irritating? And how the heck is that a reason for banning a card? I find Ordeal of a Traveler quite irritating at times when I come across it, should it be banned for that? Heck no. So yes, your position is very difficult to try and understand, because it makes no sense and all of those reasons are just plain dumb.

[L0SS]

It does cheapen the argument, it shouldn't even be used as one. And no, that's not the fact of the matter at all. There is a reason to bring this card back, and that reason is the same as the reason for why virtually all the other unbanned cards in the game are unbanned; it isn't powerful enough to be banned. Time Seal is not a very powerful card, neither on its own or in tandem with other cards. Such cards have absolutely no place in the Forbidden section.

 

And you don't know who likes it, or who wants it, and neither of those things should have any bearing anyway. How the heck would it make duels irritating? And how the heck is that a reason for banning a card? I find Ordeal of a Traveler quite irritating at times when I come across it, should it be banned for that? Heck no. So yes, your position is very difficult to try and understand, because it makes no sense and all of those reasons are just plain dumb.

But surely you can see how this would make a game one-sided and lacking in player interaction? It's a card that is inherently bad in it's design.

 

Not all cards should be banned due to their 'power', but also due to the impact and cheapening of the game state.  Even if the card is ineffective, it's not what it does that's the issue here, it's how it approaches what it does.

 

It makes duels irritating because of this lack of player interaction; a lack of any intelligence and thought in it's design and execution. There are other cards that are guilty of that too; cards that, in an ideal meta, would be banned.

 

No positive effect will come from it returning, and that is reason enough for it to stay.

[Organized Chaos]

I think the main thing I can get out of this thread is when would you genuinely need Time Seal? When would a situation call specifically for Time Seal to be used to win? As I know of, there are no significant effects that activate in the Draw Phase and even then there are less-powerful cards to deal with it that allow your Opponent to retaliate, therefore making the game balanced for both players.

Without a purpose and without a true need for it, this card would be used only as a Win-More card, nothing more. As you've said it can't stop comebacks and it doesn't provide any immediate advantage besides your Opponent losing a draw. So it would simply be Win-More. Win-More cards are bad design, simply bad design. They do not change the game, simply keeping it in a state where you are winning more. They are incredibly hindering to your Opponent and aggravate at best.

Yes, the OTK with this card was inconsistent but so are most OTK decks using Spells or Traps from this era of Yugioh, only really being supported by graveyard retrievals and etc. But the main point is that by bringing this card back, you are also bringing back an OTK deck, no matter how inconsistent and another OTK deck will do no one any good.

To summarise, OTKs are bad, win more are bad, stop promoting bad cards and seriously just stop. This wasn't funny or edgy when you first started and it's not going to get any better. The Forbidden List is there for a reason. Yes, the Meta may be broken but that's essentially power creep in effect and that's the way it's going to go. And bringing this or any other Forbidden cards won't make the Meta be any better or make casual play. If these cards are so mediocre, why bring them back? If no one would use them except for OTKs, what's the point? Until you can answer this point without insulting me or referring to the "It's too weak" argument, I shall stand by my point: this card should stay banned, forever.

tl:dr Time Seal is terrible card design. Apologies for ranting.
 

[Superdoopertrooper]

I think the main thing I can get out of this thread is when would you genuinely need Time Seal? When would a situation call specifically for Time Seal to be used to win? As I know of, there are no significant effects that activate in the Draw Phase and even then there are less-powerful cards to deal with it that allow your Opponent to retaliate, therefore making the game balanced for both players.

 

I read this and I thought "Cool, someone here actually understands why Time Seal is mediocre and an embarrassing card to have Forbidden". Then I kept reading...

 

Without a purpose and without a true need for it, this card would be used only as a Win-More card, nothing more. As you've said it can't stop comebacks and it doesn't provide any immediate advantage besides your Opponent losing a draw. So it would simply be Win-More. Win-More cards are bad design, simply bad design. They do not change the game, simply keeping it in a state where you are winning more. They are incredibly hindering to your Opponent and aggravate at best.

Yes, the OTK with this card was inconsistent but so are most OTK decks using Spells or Traps from this era of Yugioh, only really being supported by graveyard retrievals and etc. But the main point is that by bringing this card back, you are also bringing back an OTK deck, no matter how inconsistent and another OTK deck will do no one any good.

To summarise, OTKs are bad, win more are bad, stop promoting bad cards and seriously just stop. This wasn't funny or edgy when you first started and it's not going to get any better. The Forbidden List is there for a reason. Yes, the Meta may be broken but that's essentially power creep in effect and that's the way it's going to go. And bringing this or any other Forbidden cards won't make the Meta be any better or make casual play. If these cards are so mediocre, why bring them back? If no one would use them except for OTKs, what's the point? Until you can answer this point without insulting me or referring to the "It's too weak" argument, I shall stand by my point: this card should stay banned, forever.

tl:dr Time Seal is terrible card design. Apologies for ranting.

 

It's also funny how blatantly wrong so many people here on the concept of "win moar" cards. They think they are bad for the game... They have a perfectly balanced trade-off: they are better when you are winning and worse when you are losing. And, to top it all off, they often don't help you get into the winning position in the first place, so they just sit there and make it harder for you to take the lead to where they are most useful, that's why they are in fact often a bad idea to play in your deck. Why are cards which are overall bad for the player to run banned? It's a complete joke.

 

You also obviously have no idea what you're talking about, because you mention "OTK" with this card.

[-Doodle]

Well your logic seems alot different than what most have, trooper. Your argument is "the card is awkward to be banned becaus it's bad".

So? If a card is awkward compared to the other banned card it's not a good enough reason to bring it back.

 

The only thing the card will contribute to coming back is bringing decks NO ONE enjoys playing against (in the spirit of final countdown and exodia), or being that card that is dead when you are losing or making your opponent hopeless when winning.

In other words, some horrible cards like useless vanillas don't contribute too, but they sure don't make the game worse (by bringing back annoying combo decks for example). So cards like the vanillas mentioned earlier are nuetral for the game, while this card's use is solely negative. So you cant just say it should be unbanned because there are better cards banned.

 

I mean, show me one positive thing this card will do if it were unbanned.

[evilfusion]

Doubtless that it's been reiterated countless times, but some cards are, on their own, harmless. They either combo, or they're cheap, unfair, or terribly designed. Butterfly Dagger will remain the one example in my eyes of a card that's absolutely harmless on its own. But as long as Gearfried the Iron Knight exists, it is abusable with cards that would love if you could play a Spell Card infinite times.

 

Time Seal is not harmless on its own. Time Seal is inherently bad for the game on its own because it's a chainable Trap that prevents your opponent from drawing. Being chainable is a HUGE factor in how unfair the card is. You can set it as removal bait and still use it, and you can keep it Set as long as you want and then spring it when your opponent is behind on advantage to ensure they can't get something to affect your setup. You are not simply limiting their options, you are preventing their options from existing.