Master of Sabers Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 PLEASE BRING BACK, OR ERRATA THIS TO SAY ONCE PER TURN!!! ....I want my substitoad baaaack! T_T Discuss one of my favorite cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sora1499 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Doesn't this have an FTK or sumfin? Anyways, card is basically a costless mind master. The targets aren't as good, but that doesn't stop it from being god awful design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aix Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Doesn't this have an FTK or sumfin? Anyways, card is basically a costless mind master. The targets aren't as good, but that doesn't stop it from being god awful design. Yeah, with Mass Driver and Ronintoadin. But anyway, if this comes back, who needs Swap Frog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Doesn't this have an FTK or sumfin? >Get Mass Driver and this on field, Ronin and Frog in Grave >Summon Ronin >Substi effect, trib Ronin for a frog >Trib Frog for Driver >Banish Frog for Ronin >Repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildflame Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Awsome design, should be at 4 /trooper A once per turn clause would balance it, probably. It would still be pretty damn good, both effects are awsome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Sabers Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 I remember playing wetlands frogs when this was at 3, that deck was so much fun... Dupe + Sub = Lock, Dupe + Dupe = Lock... I'd love it so much if they printed it with a once per turn, like Wildflame stated. Both effects are amazing, and I have to resort to no banlist on World Championship 2011 to play this guy... :( It's horrible card design, I agree with that. But it's still one of my favorite cards. Besides, is this really so bad compared to Judgment day / Dragossack / E-Dragons? Yeah, there's a flaw in that logic, it's comparing 2 broken cards, that doesn't change the fact that they're broken. But I have to find some way to argue for this little dude... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Even if it didn't have any FTK to go along with it, it is too quick and cheap to send your deck to the Graveyard with 1 card. Especially when that deck just instantly comes back from the Graveyard. This needed, not a 1-card replacement, but a more sophisticated and balanced engine to drop those frogs. Plus, monsters you control cannot be destroyed by battle... How obviously awful can it get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Can come back to 1. Mass Driver isn't even legal. It and Driver could co-exist at 1. Frog FTK at its peak was still far less consistent than the Divine Wind FTK that we have now, which doesn't even do anything. Subby to 1 will simply make Frogs more playable, and of course people will still play 3 Swap Frog, why the hell wouldn't you? And this card overall isn't anything like Mind Master, who has far more broken combos and who has tons better support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhat Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Don't feed da trolls. Tradetoad is a little overboard with the nerfs. I think being able to Tribute any monster would be fine if you limited it to once a turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superdoopertrooper Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Tradetoad is abysmal. Power creep has allowed Subby to return without any drama. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeppeli Gyro Supreme Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Summon Substitoad, summon Swap Frog and dump Ronintoadin. Tribute Swap Frog for Swap Frog, send Ronintoadin, etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miror B Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Tradetoad is abysmal. Power creep has allowed Subby to return without any drama. Subby is still a 1 card dump every single Frog in your deck to the Graveyard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerion Brightflame Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 If there's been power creep that allows this thing to come back, and be balanced despite dreadful design, we have to ask: Is it good power creep, or degenerate power creep. If it's the former, it can come back, because it's acceptable in a healthy game state. (Note I said, can not should). If it's the latter though, why would you bring this back, when it's better to just get rid of the degenerate creep in the game that is making it worse. We should be making the game healthier in that situation, not loading more terrible stuff into. It's the same logic as o why you should not justify any banlist change by comparing them to Incarnates and Judgment day. Anyhow: It's still horrible design no matter what. Being able to dump your entire deck with one card should not happen, ever. It's also another perfect example of a card that would be perfectly balanced with a OPT restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Its loop is focused too much on dumping and not enough on fun. Seriously. That thing is BORING AS HELL - for both players! Anyone who might find any entertainment out of it would be those who haven't witnessed it. They will get tired of it after the first or second time with the loop. As a game, Yugioh is supposed to promote fun rather than loops that are more boring than academic tests. Even if this is ok to bring back on the mere basis that it is less potent than other OTKs, it should not because it bores everyone miserably. Of course, this effect can be redone so Frogs can have their Substitoad back (loops excluded), but this card shouldn't return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Substitoad was pretty much balanced before Ronintoadin came out but Ronintoadin's not broken and this can't exist with Ronintoadin so this has to go. Just run Swap Frog if you want frogs in the grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master of Sabers Posted June 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 But I don't want to use it to get frogs in the grave. I use to to set up an attack lock, which lets me poke for game with things like Unifrog! I agree, the FTK can go rot in a hole. But I really want the battle immunity on a frog, so dupe can set up the lock. The special summoning was just icing on the cake for me back in the day. : / Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mido9 Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Is it good power creep, or degenerate power creep. HMMMMMMMM, TOUGH ONE Im gonna take degenerate power creep for 200$ barty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~British Soul~ Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Is it good power creep, or degenerate power creep? I'll take £200 for degenerate power creep Barty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 Degenerate. Even if the current format didn't have it, Substitoad coming back would be the first piece of it. *whistle* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffee. Posted June 2, 2013 Report Share Posted June 2, 2013 ERRATA THIS TO SAY ONCE PER TURN!!!>Dark Strike Fighter>Mind Master>Get Mass Driver and this on field, Ronin and Frog in Grave>Summon Ronin>Substi effect, trib Ronin for a frog>Trib Frog for Driver>Banish Frog for Ronin>RepeatThen there was the time in the format, when Driver was@0 and Toad wasn't.So as such, people moved to Toon Cannon Soldier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted June 3, 2013 Report Share Posted June 3, 2013 I remember using Frog Decks in some Yugioh RPs on this site. One notable example had my character topdeck this with Ronin in the Grave. She then looped it for the Dupe lock and 3 other Frog monsters, including I think Unifrog and a Flip Flop Frog. It was a totally broken play, and I normally am really good with not doing crazy crap in RP duels. The same character in a different Duel did the exact same thing, but grabbed 3 Des Frogs and used Des Croaking for an OTK. This and Ronitoadin should not exist together. Even if Substitoad wasn't for "any" monster as the Tribute, it was still essentially a Lonefire without a once-per-turn clause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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