Maeriberii Haan Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Sure, you guys have noticed the erratas for things like Debris, Dark Strike Fighter, and other cards lately. While they are few, some of them are pretty gamechanging for the cards themselves, which affects their usability and brokenness somewhat (especially on DSF's case). This thread is not for discussing your ideas on errata-ing cards in the list, but on the philosophy behind them, about whether this is good for the game or not, of whether they should even do more, or just don't bother with it, and ultimately, would this lead to a point where the banlist ultimately wouldn't be necessary. Discuss away. I guess this is pretentious enough for an OP and title. I'll see this thread next morning to check whether it explodes or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 I think it is a good philosophy to fix one's mistakes when possible. I don't know how one could argue against that. However, fixing doesn't mean that you effectively make it a piece of shit. I'd rather just have it on the list at times then try to kill a card that has already been killed. We're getting to the point where we can just casually unban some of what were really damn strong cards in the game, which is saying something. Some of these may not even need hideous nerfs. Weakening them as well as the current powercreep could work, maybe. But it at this point may just be a lost cause. A ban list may ultimately be unnecessary, but I think a limit and a semi limit list still would be. I don't know how one can fix Solemn Warning, Judgement, or other things to the point where they could come back to 3 safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evilfusion Posted October 31, 2014 Report Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well, DSF would have been fine if it had been printed with the errata in the first place. It always felt like an oversight the way it was first made, because the easy 4K damage was REALLY blatant, plus loops. Debris...I don't think the TCG got the errata, but that completely changes how it runs. Like, drastically. It was first printed to not use Level 4s because Level 8 Synchros were amazing. If it can use Level 4s, but no Level 5+, then it became much, much better in some Decks. I don't think they should make erratas for a lot of the listed cards, because making drastic erratas to any card in general gets really confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted November 1, 2014 Report Share Posted November 1, 2014 I don't think Yugioh can discuss this in the same way as the other games out there, considering the list is meant to push sales (not exclusively, but it is one of the strongest reasons). One problem that's being presented here that other TCGs don't really share, is that Yugioh tries to carry around everything from the beginning of time, which results in a humongous list. Even though experienced players are used to it, the list can't really grow indefinitely. This is a contradiction with my first sentence, which says the game relies in how certain cards are made to be broken and expected to touch the list eventually in order to bring down the power of a number of decks so that newer decks are stronger without having to rely 100% in sheer power creep. Card erratas are a bad concept in general. A game should treat the printing of cards for sale the same as if it had been carved in stone for all time. If you are gonna go sell something that is gonna mass produced, the least you can do is make sure it works the way you want it to for the most part. It goes without saying that slips like Dark Strike Fighter's lack of an OPT clause, or the seemingly lack of test that Yata-Garasu and Makyura the Destructor received based on sheer execution and given cardpool at the time, should have been corrected from their development stage. Konami has been more lazy than just that though. Granted that "Archfiend" wasn't a full-fledged archetype with support at the time Summoned Skull and Axe of Despair were translated to TCG, but it is still very impressive that it took them 14 years to correct them, even after they have received a multitude of reprints in sets like tournament event packs, starter decks, Duelist Pack, etc. It is a bad concept because of how it can confuse players, and how it renders useless a very important concept shared by pretty much all TCGs: If a card conflicts with a rule, the card wins. Heck you shouldn't really have to go look at something other than the instructions on your rulebook that came with whatever intro deck you bought, the vast majority of the time at least. Once again, I say that Yugioh has the particular problem that it depends on an ever-changing banlist, and throughout most of its history, its size has just increased with said changes. Powercreep allows something to come off the list once in a while, but there are a multitude of cards that need the blatant change in order to come off the list at any given time due to things like loops. Yugioh can't have an infinitely growing list, so they are doing something that's not really a good thing in order to try to decrease its numbers. I personally think there are some cards in all 3 lists (ban, limit, semi-limit) that could test the waters of more freedom as of right now, but that's another topic. All in all no, I don't think cards should ideally be errata'd because I think more thought should be happening towards the cards in their development stage so that it wouldn't need something like that to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JadenxAtemYAOI Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I do like the idea of erratas. It makes older cards usable again and increases prices of the originals. BlS went from I'm going to attack your entire field to two attacks max. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 I do like the idea of erratas. It makes older cards usable again and increases prices of the originals. BlS went from I'm going to attack your entire field to two attacks max. Umm actually, personally speaking, I've never seen a card's price go up because of erratas in particular. To be fair though, the erratas in Yugioh usually are to tone their power down rather than up, so a card never really gets more useful than before. If anything, a price increase might come from the card being previously banned and coming off the list, ready to be tested in the competitive scene, but that's a separate thing, I think that might have been the case for BLS Envoy. Usually, a card's errata-ing is followed by a reprint, which would actually bring the price down from having the cheaper and more accessible reprint available, easing up the demand of the old expensive original print. I think a reason the problem with confusion due to errata in Yugioh hasn't been all that big is because it takes so long to happen that older versions of the card aren't even around for the most part anymore xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mysty Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Well, the Legendary Collection 5D's Debris Dragon still has its original text while Dark Strike Fighter has its errata. Go figure. There are many articles on the internet about why Wizards of the Coast chooses not to use power errata anymore. Here are a couple:http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/11926_On_PowerLevel_Errata.html (much more about why) http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af127 (a bit more about what) As such, I am not a fan of power level errata in any game as a principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryusei the Morning Star Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Look at it this way. Subsitoad will always be used for some FTK or another, now if a OPT is added to it, the cards ceases to be broken and can actually help a deck out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted November 2, 2014 Report Share Posted November 2, 2014 Well, the Legendary Collection 5D's Debris Dragon still has its original text while Dark Strike Fighter has its errata. Go figure. There are many articles on the internet about why Wizards of the Coast chooses not to use power errata anymore. Here are a couple:http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/11926_On_PowerLevel_Errata.html (much more about why)http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/af127 (a bit more about what) As such, I am not a fan of power level errata in any game as a principle. I couldn't help but think about this quote from the Yugioh Strategy Site:"Imagine going down to a dozen pages of card rules, instead of a thousand. It could happen." Compared to the quote from your first article:"in fact, the ideal situation would be that no one ever has to consult Oracle or the Comp Rules." I like the mindset of the article better. I don't know what my point is with this post, I just wanted to post it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted November 3, 2014 Report Share Posted November 3, 2014 Gonna be honest, erratas like DSF are something i like, as they put cards back in the game. Debris dragon, however, no longer goes into star eater with fog king, and they makes me angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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