Ideal banlist Discussion

[Self-Destruct Button]

If we're banning on impact, Goyo, Bulb and Raigeki shouldn't be on there.

 

My thoughts exactly when I saw this list. At first I was even questionig the BLS and Raigeki ban, but okay, I don't mind that too much, as saying something against it would be pointless and lead to dispute anyways. The only 2 things that don't make THAT much sense in my opinion are Soul Charge and Goyo Guardian. I mean, Soul Charge is fine banned, I don't mind it because I wouldn't run it anyways, however I think it is balanced because of all the drawbacks it has built-in. It's best use to come back in close games as topdeck or when you're in a bad spot and need something to return - and it still requires you to have quite a few LP and you cannot attack, both of which can be crucial drawbacks at times. The card is not broken to a point where it has to be banned - in my opinion its completely fine at 1, because decks that would abuse it are too inconsistent with only 1. (See: any Quasar variant) Other than that, it just turns into a trade - you trade some monsters in for a lot of momentum (as in: you cannot attack) and a lot of LP. Decks like Burning Abyss don't even need Charge anyways because they got other ways to get their cards - Soul Charge boosts non-Meta decks more than it does the meta. Any Synchro-heavy deck (X-Saber, Six Samurai, Blackwings, stuff like that) would love having it back in order to be able to keep up - which they still wouldn't be close to. It's neither a Meta-Defining nor a OP card at 1, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree or ignore this, I don't really care.

But what I do care about is Goyo Guardian. How can you even nearly think of banning that guy? He is 0% Meta-Defining, is played in ONE of the top three decks atm (BA, Qli, dolls, if you look OCG almost none run it either), and has absolutely no reason to be banned. I mean - okay, it has way too much ATK for a Level 6, but people don't see that it has to battle to be of any use. It takes effort and investment to even come that far with Goyo - the most common way to summon it is Shaddoll Falco + any of the Lv4s, which doesn't exactly happen THAT often. Even if you can summon it consistently, what does it give you? You run over a BA? K. It blows itself up. You run over a Dante? Alright. Another free effect for your opponent. You run over a Qli-Monster? Goes to the Extra - good job. Most of the time you are going to be stealing a monster that just sits on your board and does absolutely nothing - unless you picked a REALLY lucky matchup. And even if you do so, you first gotta get that Goyo out. Not to mention that ALL other Level 6 Synchros are complete garbage - HTS Psyhemuth and Vulcan the Divine being the only notable ones, yet both of them kinda suck at the moment. Burning Abyss COULD summon Goyo with ease, yet they have a much more broken Lv6 Synchro at their disposal - I'd go for Virgil over Goyo any day. So on that note, I'd leave Goyo at 1 or 2 - like TCG did - it's fine like that and it will change nothing. Except for a more diverse format. (even if its only by 1 card)

[Darj]

The issue with Goyo is that while it doesn't hurt the top tier decks as much, it hurts the rest of them (tier 2 and lower). It's like Raigeki in that it only heavily hurts rogue decks while the top tiers just shrug it off; also 2800 ATK is way above the generic Synchro6 ATK benchmark. Placing Goyo in the Forbidden list is 1 more step towards a more balanced game in my opinion. Plus, other good-but-outclassed-by-Goyo Synchro6s such as the aforementioned Psyhemuth and Vulcan will become better.

[Self-Destruct Button]

Psyhemuth is not worth it because you invest 2 cards in bringing it out and have to sacrifice itself to do anything. Plus Vulcan is situational AF. While it hurts Rogue decks a bit more, it benefits them on the same line - those decks are the ones that run Goyo. Aside from Shaddolls, no one will ever summon it. (I wanna see a Synchro Qli deck doe) There are almost no cards at all that are currently playable that would make Goyo broken, as I said, mostly you sit on a random monster you cannot use anyways - that your opponent loses said monster is just a gimmick, ANY other card could run over it aswell.

 

EDIT: Another thought I had was: If we want an Ideal banlist, that would mean having a diverse, open and creative metagame with a lot of decks around - which would mean things like that one Glad Beast that is limited should be bumped back to 3, zenmaity should come to 1, Wind-Up Magician to 2 and Wind-Up Hunter banned. While Wind-Ups could still do some kind of loop with that, it would not be a potent one. It'd be pretty normal actually. Along that line are the 2 Gishki rituals that are limited (!Look up their FTKs before!) and Inzektor Dragonfly and Hornet. Stratos is worth mentioning there, though I don't care about it. Others would be: Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Spirit, Neo-Spacian Grand Mole, Legendary Six Samurai - Shi En, Spellbook of Fate (at 1 is fine though), Charge of the Light Brigade, Dragon Ravine (Rulers are Dead, Dragunity can become a thing again), and Hieratic Seal of Convocation.

Also, unban SDB.

[Sir Yamiegg]

I would put Ravine to 2 and Shrine to 1. Shi En can go to 3, and maybe, just MAYBE... Gateway @1??? Nah :( I would suggest Hornet to 2/3, but not sure about Dragonfly....

 

Your Trish limit does practically nothing, as Nekroz usually only run 1 - it's becoming the Apoqliphort Towers of the Deck. Ban Trish. Far too easy to Summon/wreck your opponent with.

[Darj]

Personally, I don't want to mess with unbans and instead stick with the TCG banlist as close as possible for the following:

1. To avoid opening can of worms.

2. To make it easier to play in DN, instead of using the Traditional and Unlimited sections.

 

Regarding Necloth Trishula, I have no idea of how OCG players are currently running Necloths, but I would like to see/read a couple of tests with this banlist before dropping more hits.

[Self-Destruct Button]

That's a lackluster reasoning in my opinion. Either you want to play close to the TCG or you want an ideal banlist. If you ban things you can unban aswell, same thing really. We might aswell play in Unlimited or Traditional, that doesn't make any difference at all, so if we want to improve the banlist and the Metagame in general we might aswell give some older decks their power again and not only cripple new ones. Look at Wind-Ups, Infernitys or other decks like that which are plain unplayable right now. TCG brought back Gunde, just as an example, which is literally the absolute same thing as what we'd do here.

[Darj]

I agree that the justification looks lazy, but really, that's basically it: If we begin unbanning things, some archetypes/decks may become stronger than expected and they may resurface as a problem.

And yes, I know TCG loosened the restraints on Mermails, which means they are also looking forward to bringing outdated decks back; so I would rather leave the unbanning job to TCG than unban stuff ourselves and end up with a mess. Besides, If they didn't unban cards from Infernities, Wind-Ups, Inzektors and other archetypes, it may be for a reason.

 

In addition, analyzing the cards that could be brought back would be a bit complicated and require work, and the idea is to keep the list (and thread) simple by focusing on the actual problem cards, not making old decks relevant again. Otherwise, players may lose interest on the whole thing.

 

By the way, even at @1 each, I would say Rulers are still a problem. Just look at the Lightsworn Ruler variant. Moving Ravine and/or Shrine from the list would only turn said deck more viable.

[Self-Destruct Button]

An Ideal Banlist should not keep unecessary hits. Wind-Ups, Inzektors and Infernitys are all crippled to unplayability due to the banlist, yet they would not be too strong if some of their power cards would come back to more copies. Konami doesn't remove the hits because they simply don't care about them, those three decks are not about to be reprinted or anything like that, and they don't get any support aside from that crappy wind-up card that was newly announced. If they become stronger than expected we can just revert the changes gradually until it's fine again, we don't bring out a banlist every so and so months, we can do that whenever we like to. I'd suggest running a few Tournaments under the banlist whilst testing if bringing some of the mentioned cards really hurts the format or breaks the game again. That's more than unlikely tbh. The cards I mentioned don't have to be analyzed too much because it's mostly obvious that they could return at multiples without changing the game too much. It just gives them back a bit of their power, thus another chance in the Metagame - Zenmaity was banned because of the Wind-Up Loop, as well as Magician. With Magician at Multiples the Deck becomes more consistend and more explosive (not too much though), with Zenmaity back it becomes more powerful, but it still isn't possible to perform the Wind-Up loop if we ban hunter, and even if we don't 1 Zenmaity is not enough to bring out the loop, which consisted of Special Summoning Wind-Up Rat with Zenmaity, using its effect to bring back a WU from the graveyard and then overlaying for another Zenmaity - which is not possible with it at 1. Those two cards would just bring WUs more Viability in the Metagame, thus leading to more diversity, thus leading to a more shifting and livid Meta. Same goes for Inzektor Hornet&Dragonfly, Dragon Ravine and Infernity Archfiend. On a Sidenote, some of the mentioned cards (like Inzektor Hornet) are at multiples in the OCG already, so if we want an Ideal banlist, why don't we just take the good things from OCG and TCG? Iirc they also have Zenmaity at 1. For 2 Formats i believe, and they didn't revert it yet, thus it can't be unhealthy. It just bothers me how these older decks that could be fun and intersting to use are needlessly crippled by the Banlist. 

[Darj]

Bringing back Inzektors, Infernities, and to a lesser extent Rulers, sounds like an slippery slope and with high chances of ending up bad.

Not sure of Wind-Ups because I don't remember their loops that well, but even with Zenmaity at 1 and the Hunter loop gone, if I remember correctly, they would be able to generate a couple of free pluses out of nowhere, which in my opinion is something that shouldn't be encouraged. Why break something that is already fixed?

[Self-Destruct Button]

Because what you call "fixed" is actually broken in the other direction. In fact, they are absolutely unplayable, which is not something an ideal banlist should support.

I didn't talk about rulers, Ravine is good for Dragunity, Rulers are dead.

[CLG Klavier]

Trishula is played only at 1 mostly due to the fact is - shock factor enters - IT CLOGS. It's nowhere near Apoqliporth level, since it's not a "win more" card, it's pretty vital to the deck, however running more usually clogs, so Limiting it doesn't do rat ass.

 

Banning it? No reason. It's not "Exactly the same Trishula but easier to summon". It's restricted to Nekroz decks, and it already makes it a whole lot less powerful than a generic Synchro. If you wanna "kill" Nekroz, kill their consistency. Limit Brionac. Ban Herald of Arc Light. Or something.

 

EDIT: I just looked at the banlist in OP, and...wow, it's so wrong. I'll give my opinions in a few minutes when I'm no longer busy, but half of the list seems really self-righteous and hitting cards for no reason. For example, why are Ritual Beasts hit in any shape or form? Limiting Kannahawk? Really?

 

EDIT 2: [spoiler=Opinions about bannings]

Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Glow-Up Bulb

Why are those 2 on the list? Days of dominance of Glow-Up Bulb are long gone, since Synchros are way weaker than they used to before Xyz came to existence. Bulb gives a lot of boost to already weak and inconsistent decks, and so far, it doesn't seem to have any broken applications. Same for Envoy, I don't think he caused any problems since he was unbanned. He allows lots of otherwise weaker decks to have a strong boss at their disposal to not be completly hopeless. Shaddolls don't play him, and BA doesn't either as far as I know, and even then, BLS is far from being a problem card in those decks.

 

Raigeki

Snatch Steal

Soul Charge

Here I agree wholeheartedly. Raigeki shouldn't be unbanned while Dark Hole is a thing, it's a free board wipe with no strings attached. Soul Charge same, it can't be @3, and @1 it's really damn sacky and simply makes you win games you didn't deserve to. Snatch Steal...I dunno, it's a new unban, we shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly, especially since S/T removal is SO prevalent nowadays due to Qliphort dominance.

 

Goyo Guardian

Herald of the Arc Light

Herald is a seemingly stupid ban, but in context of Nekroz, it's the best thing to hit, since it makes Kaleidomirror less stupid, since it doesn't replace itself any longer, and no other decks use Herald anyways. Goyo...Goyo is really powerful in vacuum, but judging cards in vacuum isn't too good since it doesn't account for environment. And current metagame isn't too good for Goyo, too many floating effects and Pendulums around. Goyo should stay at 1 AT LEAST, him being at 2 or even unlimited isn't a problem nowadays.

[/spoiler]

 

tl;dr

unban Envoy, Bulb and Goyo.

[Darj]

I was told that Ritual Beasts were causing trouble and Kannahawk was quite the problem card because of its searching power. Plus it dodges and goes back to the Extra Deck so the hit may not even affect it at all.

 

BLS

The way I see it, this is still a power card. Just because the current dominant decks are not LIGHT/DARK it doesn't mean it is not a problem. This will remain there, waiting for the next Chaos Deck that can take full advantage of it. And I believe Shaddolls still play it, at least in TCG, to put more damage on board and OTK/steal games.

 

Plus, if I remember correctly, BLS did cause trouble back when it was just unbanned. It's just that the powercreep has grown in such way that it is no longer a huge threat as before.

 

Glow-Up Bulb

Synchros are making a comeback with, well, Synchrons, and this will be available for them for their crazy combos.

 

Goyo

Again, this is like Raigeki in that it doesn't harm top tiers, but punishes lower tier decks. Plus its ATK is way too above the Synchro6 standard. The rest of the Synchro6s are outclassed by Goyo so hard that now people believe they are bad, when in reality the Synchro6 exception here is Goyo.

Besides, if we are hitting the top tiers, we should expect the lower tiers to rise, and that's when Goyo will come to push them back.

 

 

Anyways, I have not followed TCG, let alone OCG, that closely lately so I really don't know what's going on anymore, so I may no longer be the best person to lead this "ideal banlist".

[CLG Klavier]

I was told that Ritual Beasts were causing trouble and Kannahawk was quite the problem card because of its searching power. Plus it dodges and goes back to the Extra Deck so the hit may not even affect it at all.
Nope. Kannahawk is essential to them, BUT, Ritual Beasts aren't causing ANY kind of trouble. They haven't topped in OCG since their release I'm pretty sure, or at least I haven't seen any.
 
BLS
The way I see it, this is still a power card. Just because the current dominant decks are not LIGHT/DARK it doesn't mean it is not a problem. This will remain there, waiting for the next Chaos Deck that can take full advantage of it. And I believe Shaddolls still play it, at least in TCG, to put more damage on board and OTK/steal games.
 
Plus, if I remember correctly, BLS did cause trouble back when it was just unbanned. It's just that the powercreep has grown in such way that it is no longer a huge threat as before.
If it's no longer a threat, why ban it? Don't ban cards pre-emptively. Ban them when they cause trouble.
 
Glow-Up Bulb
Synchros are making a comeback with, well, Synchrons, and this will be available for them for their crazy combos.
Again, pre-emptive ban for no reason. Synchrons still aren't a top deck, I tested them a lot, and they can steal games, but this is never a starter of anything.
 
Goyo
Again, this is like Raigeki in that it doesn't harm top tiers, but punishes lower tier decks. Plus its ATK is way too above the Synchro6 standard. The rest of the Synchro6s are outclassed by Goyo so hard that now people believe they are bad, when in reality the Synchro6 exception here is Goyo.
Besides, if we are hitting the top tiers, we should expect the lower tiers to rise, and that's when Goyo will come to push them back.
Again, banning "because it MIGHT be a threat". Is it proven to be one? No. Then no need to ban. And just because it's above the standard it's a ban by design, which I thought was not the case here?
 
 
Anyways, I have not followed TCG, let alone OCG, that closely lately so I really don't know what's going on anymore, so I may no longer be the best person to lead this "ideal banlist".

tl;dr silly arguments based on past experiences and/or big "maybe"s.

Too much talking in this thread. Make 1-2, maybe 3 changes, test them. They prove to be right? Carry on. Do it methodically, don't try to reinvent the wheel in a single try.

[Slinky]

At this point, only thing I'd REALLY consider hitting, is banning Dewlorean.

 

People keep finding stupid ways to loop things with it. most recent being the Number 95 loop that completely eliminates your opponent's monster options from the deck. I don't remember exactly how it goes though.

 

Dumb loops are dumb. get rid of it.

[Darj]

Again, banning "because it MIGHT be a threat". Is it proven to be one? No. Then no need to ban. And just because it's above the standard it's a ban by design, which I thought was not the case here?

 

Well, yes, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to hit the cards with questionable design, which in a way are like time bombs waiting to be abused and explode. I think combining hits by impact + a bit by design would be a better approach.

 

 

And sure, loops aren't good either. I suppose "Chain Material" could be banned as well now that we are at it, because it's a card that arguably only exists for loops.

[CLG Klavier]

"hit cards with questionable design"

 

Ok, no hard feelings now, but did Black brainwash everyone with this "design" shit? Cards are banned BASED. ON. IMPACT. PERIOD. If you think anything else, then I really think you shouldn't be playing this game, or at least pretending knowing what are you talking about.

[VampireofDarkness]

Well, yes, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to hit the cards with questionable design, which in a way are like time bombs waiting to be abused and explode. I think combining hits by impact + a bit by design would be a better approach.


And sure, loops aren't good either. I suppose "Chain Material" could be banned as well now that we are at it, because it's a card that arguably only exists for loops.

Since we're talking about such, Number 95 should be considered to being limited. From seeing people dropping 2 in 1 turn, and 1 the next turn, therefore banishing a quarter of your opponent's Deck and half to all of your opponent's monster lineup (Depending on the Deck), it just seems like a door to chaos. The builds I see currently have some slight consistency issues and as mentioned, it takes Dewloren for it to banish an entire lineup of monsters, but 9 cards out of your opponent's Deck with 5 Level 7+ Dragons on board by Turn 3 is not a fair game at all. This may have to wait because Impact, but I think it'll eventually come up

[Slinky]

Since we're talking about such, Number 95 should be considered to being limited. From seeing people dropping 2 in 1 turn, and 1 the next turn, therefore banishing a quarter of your opponent's Deck and half to all of your opponent's monster lineup (Depending on the Deck), it just seems like a door to chaos. The builds I see currently have some slight consistency issues and as mentioned, it takes Dewloren for it to banish an entire lineup of monsters, but 9 cards out of your opponent's Deck with 5 Level 7+ Dragons on board by Turn 3 is not a fair game at all. This may have to wait because Impact, but I think it'll eventually come up

 

That isn't normally a problem.

The problem generally being, Dragons in general love being milled, and 95 does just that while also fucking with your opponent.

 

But plopping 3 of it requires significant extra deck dedication, and unless you are running a deck completely based around it, it generally isn't worth the 5-8 slots required to do so.

[Self-Destruct Button]

I suggest we make our own Tournaments and test matches with "Problem Cards" we see. (And yes, I am still talking about Wind-Ups and the other shenanigans.)

Hit me up on DN in an hour or so if you want to test anything specific.

But really, permanent Theorycrafting won't get us far.

[Darj]

"hit cards with questionable design"

 

Ok, no hard feelings now, but did Black brainwash everyone with this "design" s***? Cards are banned BASED. ON. IMPACT. PERIOD. If you think anything else, then I really think you shouldn't be playing this game, or at least pretending knowing what are you talking about.

 

Point taken and fair enough. I will take those 3 out of the list and see how they do, it's not that much of an issue.

 

And I will begin with the Tournament thread right away. I was waiting for January for the new TCG list to be applied, and it is January already so time to work on it.

[CLG Klavier]

Graff, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss

Mathematician

Scarm, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss

Tour Guide from the Underworld

The Nekroz Armor of Trishula

 

Instant Fusion

Preparation of Rites

Reinforcement of the Army

 

Ambushed Ritual Beast

Sinister Shadow Games

Skill Drain

Vanity's Emptiness

Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast

Reborn Tengu

 

I disagree with the following hits as well. Hitting all BA monsters and TGU is too much, and Cir is the main thing that makes the deck so stupid since it recycles EVERYTHING really. Trishula I explained before, and I don't get the Mathematician limit? RotA and Rites aren't THAT dangerous, seriously, maybe Rites are due to Nekroz, but RotA certainly isn't. Instant Fusion isn't a threat without Noden. Ambushed Ritual Beast, really? Skill Drain and Vanity are like Soul Charge, either @3 so you can consistently expect them and prepare for them, or @0 so they don't exist. @1 they are way too sacky. I'd argue if Shadow Games is really limitable, but it DOES do a lot of things for the deck. Kannahawk I explained before as well. And Tengu is another case of Synchros not being that scary any longer.

[Self-Destruct Button]

Aaaand no response for me concerning the decks that are hit too much? Meh. :c

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyways, how about we exchange DN / DevPro names or sh like that and start dueling on a regular basis outside of tournaments - competitively, that is. Just to test. That'd be helpful. 

[CLG Klavier]

I just literally brought up the "too many" hits in my above post, but that's regarding THIS list. Unbans should be taken really slowly.

[Self-Destruct Button]

I was not directly speaking to you. If I was, or if I'd disagree with you, I'd have shown that with a quote. In fact, I agree with almost all of your points. Though I think outright banning Vanity's would be a bit too much, since it has its own built-in drawback of being a -2 every now and then, but that's arguable.

[CLG Klavier]

That's why I keep saying Vanity should stay at 3. People are just salty.