Ideal banlist Discussion

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Then some other out to swarming is needed. Like unlimiting Torrential or something.

I feel we need a NEW out to swarming that doesn't just win you certain match ups, but it would be hard to design a card that's fair to all decks.

You see…swarming is inherently what Synchro-decks have to do to even put their boss on the field. I don't think that's a bad thing. TT/Vanity's is so…"Synchros now lose" (in addition to what they normally do) that I feel we need something better, more directed towards the Xyz and pendulums, in a way. I'm not trying to be salty or anything, it's just…cards shouldn't be effectively shoving entire mechanics out of the viewpoint without a hope of returning. 

Personally, Dirge FEELS like a nice swarm control. A bunch of small weak things they can't even use. Effectively stopping the flooding. That is, until Pendulums became a thing. I'm not honestly sure. I apologize in advance if any of this sounds extremely stupid.

[Spinny]

I feel we need a NEW out to swarming that doesn't just win you certain match ups, but it would be hard to design a card that's fair to all decks.
You see…swarming is inherently what Synchro-decks have to do to even put their boss on the field. I don't think that's a bad thing. TT/Vanity's is so…"Synchros now lose" (in addition to what they normally do) that I feel we need something better, more directed towards the Xyz and pendulums, in a way. I'm not trying to be salty or anything, it's just…cards shouldn't be effectively shoving entire mechanics out of the viewpoint without a hope of returning. 
Personally, Dirge FEELS like a nice swarm control. A bunch of small weak things they can't even use. Effectively stopping the flooding. That is, until Pendulums became a thing. I'm not honestly sure. I apologize in advance if any of this sounds extremely stupid.

Yeah I can't wait til lose a turn comes out either. Its not amazing, but at least its more balanced.

[Darj]

For the record, just want to point out that I'm still not an fan of leaving cards with questionable design untouched, but at the same time I don't see any harm in taking shorter steps with the list and give those cards a chance before dropping the axe. Besides, this may lead to more frequent test tournaments, and consequently promote activity on this "project".

 

That said, the following changes on the current list are:

Banned

Skill Drain

Vanity Emptiness

 

Limited

BLS

Glow-Up Bulb

 

Goyo

 

Semi-Limited

ROTA (I would limit it but I guess it should be fine to test it at 2 first instead of jumping straight to 1)

 

Unlimited

Mathman

TGU (personally I would put this to 2 but, again, nothing wrong with testing it at 3 first)

Reborn Tengu

The Nekroz Armor of Trishula (players apparently don't run the 3 of them anyways)

 

Ambushed Ritual Beast

 

Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast

[Spinny]

No qlip hits apart from skill drain?

[Darj]

No qlip hits apart from skill drain?

 

Scout and Summoner's Art Limited. It's in the OP.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

Vanity's is NEVER a -2. It's a -1 when it dies, the other minuses are due to the other actions. It's like saying Broww is a +0 because of the discard; it's a +1, the discard is a -1 (usually), and are not compounded into one single digit. Saying Broww is a +0 means you're depending on the discard effect to be a -1, but there are outliers such as Coffin (-2 to -4) which completely stop Broww from being a +0 under the logic that Vanity's would be a -2. /Minirant.

 

Also, the problem with Vanity's (and to an extent, Skill Drain, but that's about monster effects instead of SSes) is that the current gamestate revolves heavily around the concept of Special Summoning to the point where the card can easily say "You can't proceed at all until you deal with this." Some Decks have it easier than others; for example, Shaddolls have Dragon, while Bujins can easily dispatch of virtually anything by battle thanks to Crane. However, the "You can't proceed at all until you deal with this" means that you must have the counter on hand, get it quickly, or lose because you can't do anything. The card by itself, when played when your opponent can't counter it, can win the game singlehandedly. If you can get around Vanity's, then good for you. If you can't, then you lose. There have been times I've been saved by it, and times when I've ran into it without a way to stop it before losing regardless of how I played. You don't always have a way to stop this before it's too late.

 

Advantage-wise, this card's suicidal effect is a -1 that is often tacked on to an action that causes a +0 (or some sort of minus). A lot of Decks Special Summon via effects, however. Chaining Vanity's to one of these effects is either a +1 or a +0, and in either case, wastes your opponent's effect (for example, if you chain this to Altair, it's a +0 that would have otherwise resulted in a +1, and also Altair is effectively a vanilla now). Also, by the way it's worded, you have to kill Vanity's directly in order to stop it from stopping your play (and I don't think there are many outs that can do this, the most notable ones being MST and its Artifact clone), which means it doesn't leave in a -1 suicide. Should Vanity's not go down immediately, its eventual -1 suicide evens out with the wasted opportunity (and, depending on what it was chained to, a +1).

 

This is different from monsters with immunities (Beelze, Marshy back in the day, etc.) because not having a counter simply means you can't get to your opponent's Life Points. Marshmallon does not hinder your Deck's ability to play like Vanity's does. If you can't off Marshy or Beelze ASAP, you're not going to become fixed in a weak position, so you have a much longer time to dig in your Deck for that counter card. If you can't quickly get rid of Vanity's, you're either not in a good position or your opponent doesn't know how to flip cards. This is a card that would be more acceptable (albeit still annoying at times) if the game wasn't nearly as reliant on the Special Summoning mechanic as it is now.

 

Probably too late to the party, but eh.

[VampireofDarkness]

For the record, just want to point out that I'm still not an fan of leaving cards with questionable design untouched, but at the same time I don't see any harm in taking shorter steps with the list and give those cards a chance before dropping the axe. Besides, this may lead to more frequent test tournaments, and consequently promote activity on this "project".

That said, the following changes on the current list are:
Banned
Skill Drain
Vanity Emptiness

Limited
BLS
Glow-Up Bulb

Goyo

Semi-Limited
ROTA (I would limit it but I guess it should be fine to test it at 2 first instead of jumping straight to 1)

Unlimited
Mathman
TGU (personally I would put this to 2 but, again, nothing wrong with testing it at 3 first)
Reborn Tengu
The Nekroz Armor of Trishula (players apparently don't run the 3 of them anyways)

Ambushed Ritual Beast

Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast

While I find Trishula to be in question, (Then again, I of all people shouldn't complain) I do find these all to be a step in the right direction! Now the question bears simply....
WHERE THE HELL DO I SIGN UP? :)

[Blake]

I'd like to point out the OCG and TCG have both hit cards/kept cards on the list on design premises. The Transmigration Prophecy was one such example. It a infinitely recycle in theory, so they kept it from doing so. Or Card Trooper. These cards were clearly outpaced by the game for the reasons they hit the list, but they were kept on because the idea of releasing that type of design wasn't appealing in the least.

Then the OCG recently hit Blaze Fenix and Symbol of Heritage. Why? Harpie Harpist is being released. This means they're removing an O/FTK that might be too good with the added consistency of Harpist from the game. This is also a game design choice, as they didn't wish for the O/FTK to thrive in the format, so they removed it. And the OCGhas a long history of questionable banlist choices, to boot.

You can't go batshit with it, that doesn't make sense. But design is still a part of the banlist, although moreso in the fear of a certain combo arising. If you're making an 'ideal' banlist, you shouldn't be afraid to cut decks that add nothing positive to the game down. There is a line between blind removal and understanding what design is harmful, so you shouldn't throw it out the window completely.

Should Cyber Stein be an unlimited card? No. Is it in the OCG? Yes. Has it made much impact? No because the OCG is terrified of veilerc/etc. costing a game. But that's still not a healthy design to exist in the game.

And what does BLS, for example, add to the game? Increased OTK potential in Shaddoll. That's it. In fact, Lily/Koko opened my eyes a lot to design points I had never thought of on Friday. For example, Shaddoll Fusion. It's a terribly designed card... But it's a consequence of power creep. Without this card, the deck would not be able to compete at all. It truly wouldn't.

And then there's Nekroz Trishula. He's not the problem with the deck as a whole, but... Surprise surprise, Trishula isn't a fair card design. It should realistically be banned. Without it, the archetype doesn't have half of the fear value it presently holds. You still have food bosses, but you can't be punished for /devoting/.

And Shaddoll Fusion has the same issue... So what's different, here?

Nekroz Trish punishes you for playing at all. Fusion is still absurd and shouldn't exist freely, but it gives an archetype of mostly fine cards (Dragon is very good design, overall) the speed it needs to compete. Unlike Trish, who adds too much power to deck with powerful consistency (even @1), doll fusion gives power to a deck that isn't anything special outside of it and random El-Shadoll Fusion OTKs. In fact, almost every problem with Shaddoll is due to Chaos monsters (BLS, CED) and Eclipse Wyvern/DAD. Beast is fine overall, Squamata is fine overall, Hound is fine if weak, Hedgehog is perfectly fine, Dragonis amazing design, and Falco... Is stupid design that does too much that is, much like Trish, usually played in lower numbers.

Fusion is a card linked to the gamestate's power and speed level. Trishula is an objectively overpowered and poorly designed card, and it's deck does not need it to make power plays. You could leave Manju, Senju, Unicore, Herald, and Kaleido all alone if you ban Trish, as it leaves the deck with Gungnir (mediocre), Decisive (Mediocre), Valkyrus (amazing), and Brionac (Mediocre) as your bosses. Please use the context of bosses, not hand traps/spells.

And here's an older example tahrs very TCG v OCG.

Chicken or Spirit. Fire fists.

Chicken makes Spirit absurdly good, and it does a lot.

Spirit is stupidly strong for what it does and makes, but its targets limit it.

So which card offers more to the deck at a higher number without offering too much?

Chicken. It gives you a way to filter through your cards, which are fair bar Tenki, and search off of combos. Spirit offers you linear power plays that decrease the effort and thought put into the deck, most times.

Spirit is a "Junk Synchron". These cards have never been a healthy design for the mechanics they support, and this shows here. Junk is fine, but only because he's so limited... Debris isn't a fine design. That's why he hasn't left the list, despite his impact being long gone. Wolfbark made it off, but he's still a stupid design. And all of these continue.

So let's imagine a world where Chicken came before Rooster. He'd be an incredibly good card, but fair. He's only broken with Spirit. Spirit only became broken with Chicken, but Leopard/Burner/Etc. weren't shabby, either.

So was Chicken designed in a dumb manner, due to the existence of Spirit? Yes. But if Spirit hadn't existed, it wouldn't be at all. When you remove Spirit from the equation, Chicken is a generally good card, not too good, though it does a little too much in theory. Spirit, however, would always be make or break. Its targets would either break it, root wouldst on ashelf and gather dust as it waited to storm the field, due to the haphazard design.

My points are these:
-Design does have a place in the banlist, to say it doesn't is begging for you to gradually care less and less about game health. See Cyber Stein.
-When banning and such, consider the speed and power you want for the game. Shaddoll Fusion is likely a card you want to be too good, but that requires a lot of hits to reach. Just use it as an example of how to work downward.
-Consider interactions between cards. While you shouldn't be afraid to kill a completely toxic deck (FTKs, Infernities, Ritual Spirit Beasts), you also should not go crazy and punish wrongly. Chicken and Spirit are good examples.

[Spinny]

Scout and Summoner's Art Limited. It's in the OP.

Did you have to limit summoners art  tho? Because that kills some of NP's consistency aswell :/ plus theyve taken a hit with skill drain already (thats not a bad thing tho).

[shadychaosblack]

so we can so make our own banlist and talk about what should be in the game and what shouldnt 

[Sir Yamiegg]

so we can so make our own banlist and talk about what should be in the game and what shouldnt 

Voltex has the final say in the "YCM Banlist" - but yeah, this thread is about balancing the banlist with a custom one.

[-Griffin]

So, question about the future of this:

Power creep will happen. Are cards going to come off the banlist to increase power of old Decks with time, will new Decks be hit by the list down to the level the list currently puts top Decks, or will all new cards be banned by default to avoid power creep entirely? I imagine the last one would put a lot of people off using the list, and the first will still obsolete most Decks eventually. The second is just going to get closer to the third over time, ignoring pack filler trash, due to the way cards/decks keep creeping up. I don't see a sustainable way to keep current Decks relevant while bringing in new Konami-designed cards.

[Darj]

The goal is the second option: Tone down any incoming archetype/deck to the level of the current top tiers. And yes, eventually the list won't be enough to keep power creep on check, and at that point I guess the list/initiative/project will be unsustainable and will die. Otherwise, there would be so many banlist changes to consider and evaluate that, as you point out, players may lose interest with all the bans and unbans going on.

[-Griffin]

You could, eventually, restart the list with a higher power level in mind so less things need to be banned.

Alternatively you could play a different format that isn't Konami'd, coughydfcough, but you already know that :)

I'm honestly curious what Konami's long-term plan is. I'm guessing to keep power-creeping, obsoleting a bunch of cards/decks to sell the new ones. Then add crazy new support to certain old cards to sell nostalgia, aka they keep supporting Blue Eyes, and make people buy reprints of cards they didn't even have to design this time around. I'm thinking they really don't care about the number of 'useless' cards in the game.

[Self-Destruct Button]

I suggest we try to keep the Decks at a level where as many decks as possible can compete. That's at least what I thought was the purpose of this banlist. The Konami Power Creep can be stopped in the way we already do it, I would guess - that means hitting new Decks to the level where they are just as good as the other Decks that are top tier right now. That way, we can at least TRY to make the Meta more and more diverse, because if every Deck is as viable as the others, one can run whatever one wants to run. Of course, this is already impossible, because archetypes like Amazons or Dustons could never stand up to Bujins or Shaddolls, and this should not be forced by the Banlist. 

Though what I think should be done, what was not done so far, is also seeing the opposite side of the Spectrum: Unbanning or Unlimiting cards that belong to Archetypes that would not break the game anymore even at Full Force. For Example, Glatiator Beast Bestiari has no point in being limited. Absolutely none - see Harpies for Example. They have much more excessive Backrow removal in Hunting Ground + Dancer or Hunting Ground + Channeler (though you generally want the first because Channeler is the main Card of the deck, and you therefore want to see it when the enemy backrow is clear), yet they are unlimited, and arguably balanced. The same goes for Wind-Up Magician, though maybe not for carrier because Carrier is like... you go for a rank 3 PLUS a 1500k vanilla, essentially, because you're gonna special Rat either way, use its effect and bring another WU back, at that point you have what I described earlier. But Magician is fine, seeing how the Deck finds itself by far too slow and inconsistend with it at 1. Other mentions would be Dragon Ravine, which was banned because of Dragon Rulers which cannot break the game again as they are all at 1 or banned (baby rulers), but it remaning banned severely hurts Dragunitys which would be a fun and competitive Deck (with the new equip at least) if they still had their Field Spell. Rulers are dead either way, so this can come back. Along that line are Infernity Archfiend, Inzektor Hornet and Dragonfly, Brotherhood of the Fire Fist - Spirit (look out for interactions with Rooster), Evigishki mind Augus and Gustkraken (look out for their loops, they must be hit otherwise), Legendary Six Samurai - Shi En, MAYBE Spellbook of Fate but I think they are fine because they can recycle, Geargiagear, and lastly Hieratic Seal of Convocation.

 

I bring this up again because I think this is an Issue that should be adressed, since most of the mentioned Decks are really fun to play and would really bring some new Diversity and Interest into the Metagame, also it would bring players of these Decks to our Tournaments (eventually) because they appreciate SOMEONE seeing the issue with the Slowbro-ish behaviour of Konami. 

Needless to say, we would have to host our Duels in the unlimited Section of Dueling Network in that case, but that's a minor issue anyways, as the place of hosting does not influence the duel in any way, shape or form.

[Blake]

You could, eventually, restart the list with a higher power level in mind so less things need to be banned.

Alternatively you could play a different format that isn't Konami'd, coughydfcough, but you already know that :)

Just wanna add on to this, because it's exactly why I mentioned Shaddoll Fusion.
 
It's a good card in the current gamestate, due to creep, but it would be absolutely fucking broken in any weaker gamestate. In fact, it's only broken because they wanted the otherwise passive and mostly decent idea behind the dolls to not be too slow to keep up with all they had coming.

I believe that each level of power you want has cards like this to build from, and for you to truly consider.

Do you want Shaddoll Fusion to be good or unfair? Do you want Mermail Abysslinde to be good or unfair? Do you want Black Whirlwind to be good or unfair? Do you want Wind-up Zenmaines to be good or unfair?

There are lots of cards that were unfair at their release that can give you a good idea of power level. So, when deciding to go forward or back, use cards like these.

[Slinky]

Suggestions

 

Banned:

 

Dewlorean, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier: The source of many absolutely ridiculous OTK/FTKs/Loops, Its been repeatedly fluctuating on both lists until it finally settled at 1. And even then, it still is causing them, it's time to get rid of it.

 

Qliphort Scout: Let's face it, They have front observer, they have Soul Turnover, they have Monolith, they have Saqlifice. They already have crazy consistency, and nearly everyone is already sick of them. Let's just shoot them in the foot. It also really isn't fair to shoot so many different other decks as well by limiting Summoner's Art in order to cripple a single deck.

 

Limited:

 

Dragon Ravine: Let's uh.. just try it out? For the sake of Dragunities?

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict: Worth trying out since IF is @1. 

 

Semi-Limited:

 

Fire Formation - Tenki: ROTA is @2 here, this needs to follow suit, because its targets are just as good (Bear/Gorilla/Wolfbark)

 

Unlimited:

 

Summoner's Art:  If Scouts' banned, no need to keep it here.

[Sir Yamiegg]

Suggestions

 

Banned:

 

Dewlorean, Tiger King of the Ice Barrier: The source of many absolutely ridiculous OTK/FTKs/Loops, Its been repeatedly fluctuating on both lists until it finally settled at 1. And even then, it still is causing them, it's time to get rid of it.

 

Qliphort Scout: Let's face it, They have front observer, they have Soul Turnover, they have Monolith, they have Saqlifice. They already have crazy consistency, and nearly everyone is already sick of them. Let's just shoot them in the foot. It also really isn't fair to shoot so many different other decks as well by limiting Summoner's Art in order to cripple a single deck.

 

Limited:

 

Dragon Ravine: Let's uh.. just try it out? For the sake of Dragunities?

 

Thousand-Eyes Restrict: Worth trying out since IF is @1. 

 

Semi-Limited:

 

Fire Formation - Tenki: ROTA is @2 here, this needs to follow suit, because its targets are just as good (Bear/Gorilla/Wolfbark)

 

Unlimited:

 

Summoner's Art:  If Scouts' banned, no need to keep it here.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DRAGON RAVINE PLEASE UNBAN NOOOOW #FREEMAHNIGGADRAGONRAVINE

   and TER looks good too

[Darj]

Just wanna add on to this, because it's exactly why I mentioned Shaddoll Fusion.
 
It's a good card in the current gamestate, due to creep, but it would be absolutely f***ing broken in any weaker gamestate. In fact, it's only broken because they wanted the otherwise passive and mostly decent idea behind the dolls to not be too slow to keep up with all they had coming.

I believe that each level of power you want has cards like this to build from, and for you to truly consider.

Do you want Shaddoll Fusion to be good or unfair? Do you want Mermail Abysslinde to be good or unfair? Do you want Black Whirlwind to be good or unfair? Do you want Wind-up Zenmaines to be good or unfair?

There are lots of cards that were unfair at their release that can give you a good idea of power level. So, when deciding to go forward or back, use cards like these.

 

In a way I was enlightened by this, so thank you for that. I mean, I knew Shaddoll Fusion's case and how its milling effect is basically what pushes (or pushed) the archetype to the top tiers, but I didn't really see it and other cards such as the ones you mentioned here as "markers" of different power levels.

 

---

I will take Dewloren ban, along Fusion Material along with it because it's also another loop card.

But I want to give Scout a chance before dropping the full axe on it.

Tenki has way less targets than ROTA, and Bujins/Fire Fist may want it at 3 to stand against the nerfed Qlips/BAs/Shaddolls. Again, depending on the tests, it could be hit.

 

I would like to drop a tourney first before beginning with unbans so I will hold Ravine and Restrict for now.

[Self-Destruct Button]

I would like to drop a tourney first before beginning with unbans so I will hold Ravine and Restrict for now.

Create the TopicCreate the TopicCreate the TopicCreate the TopicCreate the Topic

 

Eeeeh I mean that would only make sense if the Tournaments will become a regular thing, else it will take us ages to make any decision ever, and also this whole topic would be irrelevant because the banlist won't be used.

 

Edit: For the sake of us all, PLEASE limit Star Seraph Sovereign, like he is in the OCG. Please.

[VampireofDarkness]

For those who haven't seen! The tournament is up! You got til Monday to sign up so GET ON IT http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/327960-ideal-banlist-tournament-accepting/

[Blake]

I'd join to help, but I am backed up I. Writing and I'm packing to move, so...

Still very willing to discuss list choices/decisions, though. I know something on the list for the tourney bugged me, but I can't recall what at 4 am.

[VampireofDarkness]

So exactly when was that tournament gonna begin?

[Darj]

Last Monday but I feel there are not enough participants. Sure, we could proceed with the 5 who applied, but it would be a short-lived event.

[Spinny]

Is dis Dncg? So can I play harpie harpist?