Ideal banlist Discussion

[Slinky]

 I remember once reading here in a TCG thread that it didn't deserve a hit because it promoted skill and whatnot, but the truth is that it is still a floodgate, and an annoying one at that.

 

Its funny how people say Skill Drain promotes skill when it actually drains it.

As for Necloth, it really is tough to decide a hit for them, because they synergize so well with each other. If you hit X, they will just run more of Y. So it would literally take multiple hits across the board to effectively reduce their power level, so as such, you are left with the floodgates such as Herald and ROTA, which are also pretty generic (at least, ROTA is, Herald is.. kinda generic, and YZs do have it as a staple thanks to Baxia reviving)

[Blake]

Kaleido is only good because of Herald. Without Herald, it's just an okay second ritual. It's not the problem. It might punish another deck, but quite frankly my dear, I don't give a damn. It's not like Balmung wasn't useful in YZ, anyways.

As for Cir, being replaced by Cranecrane... is a good thing. Cir creates a loop with Dante, anyways, so no it is not fine in theory.

Mathman should be limited, no ifs, ands, or buts.

Tenki should be lower but it's not hurting anything higher. Leave Moralltach alone, really. BLS shouldn't exist but meh.

[Darj]

So, to recap:

 

TCG Banlist

+

Forbidden:

Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning

Glow-Up Bulb

 

Raigeki

Soul Charge

 

Goyo Guardian

Herald of the Arc Light

 

Limited:

Cir, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss?

Graff, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss?

Qliphort Scout

Mathematician

Scarm, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss?

Tour Guide from the Underworld

The Nekroz Armor of Trishula

 

Preparation of Rites?

Raigeki

Reinforcement of the Army

Shaddoll Fusion

Soul Charge

 

Ambushed Ritual Beast

Sinister Shadow Games?

Skill Drain

Summoner's Art

 

Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast

 

 

I will take the list to the OP.

[Astro Dude]

I have a solution, make every single card unlimited, except for Exodia, keep that set Limited. Other than that, anything goes.

[Just Crouton]

I have a solution, make every single card unlimited, except for Exodia, keep that set Limited. Other than that, anything goes.

 

This is the absolute dumbest idea I've ever heard in a banlist thread.

 

Ever.

[Slinky]

I have a solution, make every single card unlimited, except for Exodia, keep that set Limited. Other than that, anything goes.

 

[Toffee.]

I think the funniest part of Astro's post is the fact he only mentioned Exodia.
I mean, it's not like everyone else would play the numerous other FTK/OTKs that would be possible with everything@3.
Speaking of which... Fastest FTK with 'Unlimited' format, IMO, is Exchange. I thought of another, faster, FTK the other day, but I seemingly forgot.

[Darj]

You already commented on Astro's "suggestion" and I don't have anything else to add so I won't bring it up again.

 

Anyways, I was thinking on taking this to the next step: A YCM tournament for testing. I'm bringing the idea up here first in case you have any suggestion or idea on the tournament before I make a thread in the appropriate section.

 

The tournament will use the "DNCG" format in order to properly test OCG cards such as Necloths and Spirit Beasts, but applying the TCG banlist combined with the banlist we currently have here.

Exception: Since we recently got the Synchron support cards, players are still testing it out and we have not dropped any hits on them yet, those cards won't be allowed in this tournament.

 

In addition, I am considering adding a couple of rules to make things, in theory, more fair, but I want to know if you would be fine with them first:

- All cards and effects get hard OPT clauses. E.g. You would be able to use only 1 Upstart Goblin per turn.

Exception: When a card can use its effect 2 or more times, then you are allowed to use the effect up to that many times. E.g. You can only use the effect of "Constellar Kaust" twice per turn, even if you have 2~3 copies on the field.

 

- Monsters with inherent Special Summoning conditions gain the clause "You can only Special Summon [insert monster name here] this way once per turn."

 

- Once per turn, you can Normal Summon 1 Gemini monster you control (must be on the field) in addition to your Normal Summon/Set. For practical purposes, this additional Normal Summon can be called Gemini Summon.

This is just to speed Gemini monsters up by a bit.

 

- BKSS ruling overrule: Cards that Special Summon monsters ignoring summoning conditions can do so even if the monster was not properly Summoned first.

I admit this last one is silly and in a way selfish, but I am curious to see if it would make any difference, such as turning Dark Flattop relevant somehow.

[Astro Dude]

Are you quite sure about that?

 

The banlist exists for a reason.  Bringing back the Yata-Garasu Lockdown, Goat Control, and Scientist OTK decks can only end in disaster.

Yes, I would like to use cards like Sangan, Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster etc.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Yes, I would like to use cards like Sangan, Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster etc.

 

I'll use Makyura-exchange of spirit FTK though so you can't even get to use those.

 

Thank you for your time.

 

tbh, I'll go with the formulated list first, as we are aiming to test this list's effectiveness and impact first. Adding other rules/special conditions will just skew the results.

 

Just go one by one about this.

[Darj]

tbh, I'll go with the formulated list first, as we are aiming to test this list's effectiveness and impact first. Adding other rules/special conditions will just skew the results.

 

Just go one by one about this.

 

Alright then.

Actually, I realized it shortly after posting my previous comment: this is about fixing the banlist, not playing a different format, and additional rules would turn it into the latter.

[Sir Yamiegg]

I saw this and it looked interesting. Not too late to post, I hope?

 

Raigeki and Soul Charge are on both Forbidden and Limited Lists :3 Soul should probably be banned. 

 

If we're banning on impact, Goyo, Bulb and Raigeki shouldn't be on there.

 

I also don't agree with the Arc Light hit - Kaleidomirror is the problem with Nekroz. Ban/limit Kaleido and ban Trishula, Limit Clausolas or Brionac. This should be enough to slow the Deck to a manageable status. I'm against hitting generic Ritual support because other Ritual decks need it badly.

 

Banning Scout solves the Qliphort problem. I would go for that rather than Limiting Scout and Summoner's Art, but whatever. 

 

Shaddoll Fusion and Shadow Games to 1 are good hits - but Fusion can still be searched easily and recycled with Core and stuff. Maybe Limit Hedgehog so it's not searched as easily? This looks like a very questionable hit on paper, though.

 

If you really want to hit BA properly where it hurts, hit Dante, Graff and TGU to 1 and forget about the other Malebranches.

 

If you're hitting Ritual Beasts, hit Hermit Youkai/Yosenju as well - they're guaranteed to be a top contender with Qlis, Dolls, BA, Nekroz and Ritual Beasts weakened. You could Limit their Secret Technique or Shrine and that would be enough.

 

I'd be up for a tournament on the list. And damn, my text is going funny again.

[Darj]

It's not late. I had been thinking in updating the list with TCG January banlist changes.

I'm also not a fan of hitting generic support only because other archetypes abuse it. But I don't know Necloths so I have no idea of the impact if would have on them if Kaleidomirror is hit.

 

Anyways, we will adopt the new TCG banlist, except that Snatch Steal, Honest, Dark Hole and Reborn Tengu stay where they were. They are open to discussion, though.

[Sir Yamiegg]

It's not late. I had been thinking in updating the list with TCG January banlist changes.

I'm also not a fan of hitting generic support only because other archetypes abuse it. But I don't know Necloths so I have no idea of the impact if would have on them if Kaleidomirror is hit.

 

Anyways, we will adopt the new TCG banlist, except that Snatch Steal, Honest, Dark Hole and Reborn Tengu stay where they were. They are open to discussion, though.

On impact? I suppose you can't really tell yet, but I don't think Tengu will warrant a semi-limit, nor Hole. Snatch Steal returning is horrible but I kinda like it... Honest should probably stay @1.

[Darj]

The banlist is more based on impact AND returning to the list those questionable cards TCG brings back just to be silly, namely Snatch, Raigeki, BLS, etc.

[Sir Yamiegg]

The banlist is more based on impact AND returning to the list those questionable cards TCG brings back just to be silly, namely Snatch, Raigeki, BLS, etc.

Raigeki is fine where it is - Steal and BLS, not so much. The game has evolved to a point where the meta don't care bout Raigeki (much).

[Lonk]

Needs moar Vanity's Emptiness on the list.

[Darj]

Sure. I guess I will put it in Limited since it is a floodgate.

[VampireofDarkness]

Until we see a working Deck incorporating Tengu in some sort of broken way, I think it's safe to keep Tengu at 3. Other than that, the only thing I would consider is MAYBE banning Noden, it's a card that just opens up too many doors to F/OTKs, albeit some are inconsistent by nature. Besides that, it seems like you've accomplished the goal of such banlist thus far

[Minato Sakai]

But banning Noden makes Azathoth completely useless.  I'd suggest putting him to one, and if he's still a problem there, then we can ban him.

 

Does this sound like we're about ready to try a tournament?

 

You could just ban Instant Fusion, since it's the primary way Noden is summoned.

[VampireofDarkness]

You could just ban Instant Fusion, since it's the primary way Noden is summoned.

The problem with that would be that also would make the Deck that Azaroth is run in be Not-So-Viable. Noden to 1 would be the best bet, considering how running 3 Instant Fusions for 1 Noden in of itself is not so great, so you would have to play substitutes to make said cards not dead or run Daigusto Emeral, which depends on the Deck.

[Darj]

I was actually thinking in Limiting Instant Fusion, just like OCG January banlist did. And yes, we should be ready for a tournament, but to be honest, I have been lazy with typing and posting a formal thread in the Tournaments section.

[AGATHODAIMON BANGTAIL COW]

The problem with that would be that also would make the Deck that Azaroth is run in be Not-So-Viable. Noden to 1 would be the best bet, considering how running 3 Instant Fusions for 1 Noden in of itself is not so great, so you would have to play substitutes to make said cards not dead or run Daigusto Emeral, which depends on the Deck.

IF is and always will be problematic. It basically says "Pay 1k; get a Level 5 or lower monster that you can do all sorts of shenanigans with." Noden just happens to be the biggest abuser of it yet, but there's also Winda (worst case scenario is that she'll be a slow TWRA for a Fusion Spell) and Panzer Dragon (slow, but a free kill, also, Pleiades). Several years back, it also made the stupid Naturia/Karakuri bosses with Karbonala Warrior and/or Cyber Saurus (and sometimes Fusionist).

 

We do have cards like Kageto and Assault Halberd now, but IF's only restriction to playing it is that you only get one per turn (and typically, you're only going to Summon one Kageto/Halberd/whatever per turn anyways). It also works with semi-generic ED plays like Chidori (Mavelus), Excalibur (Karbonala), and so on.

[MyTomorrow77]

I've only recently returned to the game after a long hiatus, but I would like to see Maiden With Eyes Of Blue banned or at least limited. I fail to see how a card like Grow-Up Bulb is limited in TCG (all it does is summon its weak self) versus a card that instantly summons a Blue-Eyes (even if it's in the Grave) whenever you touch it. The dragon decks are powerful enough, especially when you have all of the fusion smoothers (Beastking of Swamps, Dragon's Mirror) which make summoning the likes of Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon, Dragon Master Knight, or Five-Headed Dragon all the more simple.

 

Likewise, I would limit Dragon's Mirror.

 

I would support the reinstatement of Heavy Storm to "limited" if it had the additional cost that the player using it must have at least two Spell or Trap cards on the field when it's played.

[Sir Yamiegg]

I've only recently returned to the game after a long hiatus, but I would like to see Maiden With Eyes Of Blue banned or at least limited. I fail to see how a card like Grow-Up Bulb is limited in TCG (all it does is summon its weak self) versus a card that instantly summons a Blue-Eyes (even if it's in the Grave) whenever you touch it. The dragon decks are powerful enough, especially when you have all of the fusion smoothers (Beastking of Swamps, Dragon's Mirror) which make summoning the likes of Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon, Dragon Master Knight, or Five-Headed Dragon all the more simple.

 

Likewise, I would limit Dragon's Mirror.

 

I would support the reinstatement of Heavy Storm to "limited" if it had the additional cost that the player using it must have at least two Spell or Trap cards on the field when it's played.

The game has evolved to a point where Maiden is not as good as Bulb. Bulb has more utility and variety of plays that can be done with it, plus it can be used with the still-powerful plant engine, all of which like to be milled... in your hiatus I think things have changed. Five-Headed, Dragon Master, etc. are all easy enough to deal with and Dragon decks using them aren't likely to be successful competitively.