Ideal banlist Discussion

[Toffee.]

Hey... In an ideal list, would we still have Exodia?
I mean, lets be honest... Despite the fact the deck is slow-as-fuck/irrelevant, we would still prefer it if it just didn't exist anymore.

[-Griffin]

Pretty sure Exodia is the first thing to banned on most ideal lists. 

[Darj]

Exodia should be gone in my opinion.

And I agree: I believe most of us here know Exodia is not exactly relevant nor has an strong impact on the game, but the truth is that it doesn't bring anything good to the game either. TCG already banned Final Countdown, another annoying alternate win condition, so it should be fine if we drop the axe on Exodia as well.

[Toffee.]

Exodia should be gone in my opinion.
And I agree: I believe most of us here know Exodia is not exactly relevant nor has an strong impact on the game, but the truth is that it doesn't bring anything good to the game either. TCG already banned Final Countdown, another annoying alternate win condition, so it should be fine if we drop the axe on Exodia as well.

Plus... With Exodia out of the picture, it would keep people from resorting/stooping to that deck, just because they can't think of something else to make.

[Self-Destruct Button]

Final Countdown is at 1, Voltex. D: Also, you should not forget that while Exodia, Burn and that stuff might be annyoing, it has to be kept in mind that they are, essentially, nothing more than playstyles. They are neither consistent nor good at the moment, though burn is SOMEWHAT viable I guess, but not that much. What I want to say with that is - I don't think an ideal Banlist should kill those decks completely, because those guys who want to play them will try and stick to their deck as long as they can, even if it is unviable or straightup bad, and I don't think that is something that has to be punished. Both Final Countdown and Exodia parts are completely fine at 1, and boy, if someone manages to top a tournament with one of these, he either was the most lucky person on earth or deserved it for being the best Deckbuilder. In such an aggressive and fast Metagame it really takes thought how to play with and against Exodia or Burn, and I think that's nothing we should prevent just because those Decks might be hated. Personal bias should not have influence on an Ideal banlist.

[Darj]

The thing is that those kind of alternate win conditions, regardless of viability, impact, whatever, don't bring much to the game nor require much thought or deckbuilding. Burn? stack the deck with damaging cards and stall, ignoring the opponent almost entirely. Exodia? it's the same, but replace no-battle cards with drawing cards & engines. Hitting Exodia it's not personal bias; it's for the sake of a better game.

 

Really, players that run Countdown, Exodia or Burn decks may as well play the actual Solitaire card game. Neither player interact each other when those decks are involved. In other words, the way I see it, if you play those decks, you are not playing Yugioh, but a different card game; and the point here is, well, to play Yugioh.

[Spinny]

Anyone wanna duel on DN using this, i need to test ^^

[Justice Master]

You cannot make an ideal banlist for a game with incompetent designers from day 1. This is not something we're talking about where you can rely on the people making it to help.

Konami will still be trying to power-creep the mass out of this game for your delicious money. They'll probably add another card type next year so that they don't have to listen to complaints that their creations lack inspiration, or that their power-creep causes older card types like fusion and ritual to suck harder than they already did. You want an ideal banlist? Ban the game from your house.

[Self-Destruct Button]

If that's your opinion, then this thread is not the right place for you. We are aware of powercreep and that we cannot compete with it forever. But we can make the game more fair and balanced by trying to limit the power of all decks to an equal level.

[Blake]

If that's your opinion, then this thread is not the right place for you. We are aware of powercreep and that we cannot compete with it forever. But we can make the game more fair and balanced by trying to limit the power of all decks to an equal level.

Actually, if this is what you want. you need to get out.

If 'all' decks are equal, the game is even worse than the one Konami have you, both because there's no real incentive to play one over another, and two because that ruins the side deck even if you do find reasons to run a deck.

And unfair cards are healthy for the game, just not toxicly unfair ones. They give you reasons to run a deck over another, and without unfair cards you arrive at a point where no deck is worth playing because they don't have an edge. You don't need El-Doll/Doll Fusion as your power level, but you do need a degree of unfair cards that don't go toxic.

And cards like BLS and DAD do fall under toxic, even during the times they lack impact. They're massive swings in advantage for minimal effort.

Chicken is an unfair card, but it doesn't give you too much without spirit. Just a selling point.

And so on.

[Self-Destruct Button]

Yeah sure, as if i meant all decks. Ofc i do not, i thought that was obvious lol.

All Decks that can compete with the Power level we choose. There ya go.

[Justice Master]

You know, those are excellent points, and while I disagree somewhat, I do have an opinion on how the banlist would work. I think you could possibly get away with having several preset banlists that rotate every month or so. Each could perhaps push a few decks, but not completely cripple others. But that might be too complicated.

[Darj]

You know, those are excellent points, and while I disagree somewhat, I do have an opinion on how the banlist would work. I think you could possibly get away with having several preset banlists that rotate every month or so. Each could perhaps push a few decks, but not completely cripple others. But that might be too complicated.

 

Doesn't MTG has something like that? I'm not sure, I barely know anything about other TCGs. But yeah, it would be too complicated.

 

Anyways, Destruct Button already pointed out that we are aware of the powercreep and eventually a mere list won't be enough to hold it back. The goal here is to keep it on check as long as possible for (in theory) more enjoyable games.

[Justice Master]

Well, I didn't mean something like MTG's Standard format where cards from older sets rotate out, but rather where you have, say, 5 different banlists, and they all get used at different times during the year or something and can be edited individually.

[Self-Destruct Button]

That'd be an idea, but that only works if we actually play... but like 95% of YCM ppl just randomly decide to disappear when it comes to actual duels. It's like no one even plays this game.

[-Griffin]

That'd be an idea, but that only works if we actually play... but like 95% of YCM ppl just randomly decide to disappear when it comes to actual duels. It's like no one even plays this game.

 

Man, do I hear that. I'm actually planning to advertise YDF on whatever other Yugioh forums I find (Dueling network) when we're reasonably happy with the first set's balance, so that there'll be a chance to actually find someone online to duel. YCM is not a forum of actual duel-doers.

[Spinny]

Have we banned Dark Law yet? If, not, then please do, its such a stupid card in shaddolls, BWs etc

[Self-Destruct Button]

Absolutely not. Rather Mask Change Second, lol.

[Spinny]

Absolutely not. Rather Mask Change Second, lol.

No, that kills off way too much, i.e Kamikazee in gustos etc

And thats not fair.

[Self-Destruct Button]

And taking the best monster heroes ever had (because fck Stratos) is fair? o.o

[Spinny]

And taking the best monster heroes ever had (because fck Stratos) is fair? o.o

No, taking an OP monster that can single-handedly win games away from them is fair, and thats what this is. They still have Acid,Dian, Absolute Zero. Dark law is just an added extra thats completely busted.

[VampireofDarkness]

No, taking an OP monster that can single-handedly win games away from them is fair, and thats what this is. They still have Acid,Dian, Absolute Zero. Dark law is just an added extra thats completely busted.

Did you forget that Daw Law is a DARK Masked Hero? Shadow Mist into Dark Law? Anki isn't even officially out in the OCG outside of Jump Festa, so the impact of taking out Dark Law without proper testing will be very high. It's like taking Winda out of Shaddolls. It's very unfair and at times solely wins games, but taking it out murders the Deck. If evidence proved they could win without it, I would be all for such, but it's better to observe what Masked Heroes can do on their own before we take out Dark Law

[Spinny]

Did you forget that Daw Law is a DARK Masked Hero? Shadow Mist into Dark Law? Anki isn't even officially out in the OCG outside of Jump Festa, so the impact of taking out Dark Law without proper testing will be very high. It's like taking Winda out of Shaddolls. It's very unfair and at times solely wins games, but taking it out murders the Deck. If evidence proved they could win without it, I would be all for such, but it's better to observe what Masked Heroes can do on their own before we take out Dark Law

And? If you have to kill a deck in order to achieve a greater purpose then so be it.

[VampireofDarkness]

And? If you have to kill a deck in order to achieve a greater purpose then so be it.

I'm all for killing degenerate variants of a Deck, but killing an archetype on the sake of it being used in other archetypes is ridiculous if there is a way around it. (Let's keep in mind that there are other Hero cards that aren't Shadow Mist that are DARK) You even said "It's stupid in Blackwings, BA, etc", so why not remove Mask Change II then and be done with it? Mask Change II is literally good in every Deck EXCEPT the Masked Hero Deck itself anyway

[Spinny]

I'm all for killing degenerate variants of a Deck, but killing an archetype on the sake of it being used in other archetypes is ridiculous if there is a way around it. (Let's keep in mind that there are other Hero cards that aren't Shadow Mist that are DARK) You even said "It's stupid in Blackwings, BA, etc", so why not remove Mask Change II then and be done with it? Mask Change II is literally good in every Deck EXCEPT the Masked Hero Deck itself anyway

Because mask change two isn't the broken card in question. It doesn't just summon dark law, so why remove a whole aspect when you could just remove the one broken bit, your idea sounds even crazier to me.