Slinky Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Limitation of TG, Graff, and Cir should be enough. No need to hit scarm. And Honestly, ROTA should be @2, alongside Tenki. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I'd say we playtest if those cards have too much Impact at 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Well, Graff is a deck tutor, so maybe he should be limited too, but I still think hitting TGU is too much. At least semi-limit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 That's why I keep saying Vanity should stay at 3. People are just salty. Vanity is really just a better Oppression. Its one-sided since you can just off it whenever you feel like it. Having 3 of it is severely too much. Yet @1 makes it sacky and not worth running. Maybe 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 2 is closer, but semi-limit is IMO a space for cards that work too well with themselves, think Lonefire. And it's not a better Oppression, people forget its "off" button is also a drawback that makes it way easier to kill, you don't even need a directed MST or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Well, Graff is a deck tutor, so maybe he should be limited too, but I still think hitting TGU is too much. At least semi-limit it. its either TGU or Scarm. TGU makes more sense, because then, you can't scarm additional TGU plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 TGU has a lot of usability OUTSIDE of Burning Abyss though, and it would hurt decks using it at cost of BA. Ok, then limit the entire main trio I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slinky Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 2 is closer, but semi-limit is IMO a space for cards that work too well with themselves, think Lonefire. And it's not a better Oppression, people forget its "off" button is also a drawback that makes it way easier to kill, you don't even need a directed MST or anything. Counters to a card aren't arguments. Its still an extremely disruptive chainable card that disrupts pretty much anything in its path. Just because it can self destruct doesn't make it less powerful. It means the user can then circumvent with minimal effort to avoid its consequence. Which is something Oppression CANT do. Oppression is literally just sit there and Neither player can SS period, with no off button until someone goes into Cowboy territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I'd say hit Fire Lake and Cir - while Lake is recoverable, it's still harder to get when only at 1. I'm against limiting Guide because of, as Klavier said, it's uses outside of BA. Limit Scarm, Cir and Lake maybe. Else the free pluses off of Lake get out of hand. +2 yay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Counters to a card aren't arguments. Its still an extremely disruptive chainable card that disrupts pretty much anything in its path. Just because it can self destruct doesn't make it less powerful. It means the user can then circumvent with minimal effort to avoid its consequence. Which is something Oppression CANT do. Oppression is literally just sit there and Neither player can SS period, with no off button until someone goes into Cowboy territory. Then simply ban it if you think it can't be @3. As I said, putting it to 1 or 2 makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Vanity is really just a better Oppression. Its one-sided since you can just off it whenever you feel like it. Having 3 of it is severely too much. Yet @1 makes it sacky and not worth running. Maybe 2? The problem is that Vanity is a card that, like Crush Card Virus and Royal Oppression, both which are banned, can cause scooping immediately on flip. That's the biggest issue I have with it. I am fine with what the intended purpose of the card is, but not the card in of itself. Konami has yet to punish Special 5-OTK in a proper way that doesn't either control the entire format or create entire chaos in its use. The only reason it isn't being used anymore is because less and less Decks that are meta are running Traps cause Denko, Qli, and Nekroz are that good and it is necessary to keep up with such speed. Let's assume such thing does not happen and people actually run Traps. That's when Vanity would have to go, at least in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Graff, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss Mathematician Scarm, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss Tour Guide from the Underworld The Nekroz Armor of Trishula Instant Fusion Preparation of Rites Reinforcement of the Army Ambushed Ritual Beast Sinister Shadow Games Skill Drain Vanity's Emptiness Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast Reborn Tengu I disagree with the following hits as well. Hitting all BA monsters and TGU is too much, and Cir is the main thing that makes the deck so stupid since it recycles EVERYTHING really. Trishula I explained before, and I don't get the Mathematician limit? RotA and Rites aren't THAT dangerous, seriously, maybe Rites are due to Nekroz, but RotA certainly isn't. Instant Fusion isn't a threat without Noden. Ambushed Ritual Beast, really? Skill Drain and Vanity are like Soul Charge, either @3 so you can consistently expect them and prepare for them, or @0 so they don't exist. @1 they are way too sacky. I'd argue if Shadow Games is really limitable, but it DOES do a lot of things for the deck. Kannahawk I explained before as well. And Tengu is another case of Synchros not being that scary any longer. I heavily disagree with (some of) your opinion, here. RoTA is something awful for any deck to have at three, why are you disagreeing with the limit? It searches pretty much anything in any Warrior deck. HEROs don't need this many searchers, Satellars, Noble Knights…they don't need "here start your play" being stupidly consistent. Instant Fusion doesn't need to be a THREAT. It's designed awfully by nature. It should be gone. Impact is irrelevant. That's like saying Morphing Jars should go back to three. They're not relevant, bring them back. @1…too sacky? Then let's ban Warning, BTH, CED, and TT. I personally think Vanity's SHOULD hit 0, but 1 isn't a bad idea either. Rites is also designed poorly by nature, and it helps Necloth a fuck ton. It can range from a +0 (while thinning) to a +1 that immediately sets up some of the most stupid Rituals ever, like Necloth or Herald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I heavily disagree with (some of) your opinion, here. RoTA is something awful for any deck to have at three, why are you disagreeing with the limit? It searches pretty much anything in any Warrior deck. HEROs don't need this many searchers, Satellars, Noble Knights…they don't need "here start your play" being stupidly consistent. Instant Fusion doesn't need to be a THREAT. It's designed awfully by nature. It should be gone. Impact is irrelevant. That's like saying Morphing Jars should go back to three. They're not relevant, bring them back. @1…too sacky? Then let's ban Warning, BTH, CED, and TT. I personally think Vanity's SHOULD hit 0, but 1 isn't a bad idea either. Rites is also designed poorly by nature, and it helps Necloth a fuck ton. It can range from a +0 (while thinning) to a +1 that immediately sets up some of the most stupid Rituals ever, like Necloth or Herald. Stopped reading at bolded. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I heavily disagree with (some of) your opinion, here. RoTA is something awful for any deck to have at three, why are you disagreeing with the limit? It searches pretty much anything in any Warrior deck. HEROs don't need this many searchers, Satellars, Noble Knights…they don't need "here start your play" being stupidly consistent. Instant Fusion doesn't need to be a THREAT. It's designed awfully by nature. It should be gone. Impact is irrelevant. That's like saying Morphing Jars should go back to three. They're not relevant, bring them back. @1…too sacky? Then let's ban Warning, BTH, CED, and TT. I personally think Vanity's SHOULD hit 0, but 1 isn't a bad idea either. Rites is also designed poorly by nature, and it helps Necloth a f*** ton. It can range from a +0 (while thinning) to a +1 that immediately sets up some of the most stupid Rituals ever, like Necloth or Herald. The Jars are banned because nr1 creates potential MASSIVE advantage and plays that shouldn't be there, and to completely destroy any jackpot 7 decks because konami hates alternate win conditions, Number 2 for whatever reason there is, idk. In my opinion Vanity's has to be there in order to stop excessive boards. I mean, when your opponent wants to go for double Void Ogre and another big beater, or even a double dante with a few backrow, those two are both absolutely phenomenal boards you can't get around any way soon. Vanity's Emptiness stops that by being a constant threat and it increases the balance in the game, also it has a built in drawback so whyyyyyy should we ban it. It seems to me it's just hated and therefore not seen from a neutral standpoint. I love the card, I played it even before it was hyped as it is right now - no one cared about it up to now, even not in the Shaddol/BA/Stellarknight format where it already would have been an awesome card. It is good, yes, it is annoying, yes, but it's nowhere near broken. In my opinion a necessary evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Stopped reading at bolded. Just saying. There are points when your "impact" talks have relevance, and other times when you're just being a wall for no reason. And to stop reading at the bolded means you specifically combed for those words to decide if it was worth reading. Really? I can say something is poorly designed, what the fuck is wrong with that? Cards can be poorly designed, to act like they can't is pretty fucking stupid. The Jars are banned because nr1 creates potential MASSIVE advantage and plays that shouldn't be there, and to completely destroy any jackpot 7 decks because konami hates alternate win conditions, …then why did they make Jackpot 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 There are points when your "impact" talks have relevance, and other times when you're just being a wall for no reason. And to stop reading at the bolded means you specifically combed for those words to decide if it was worth reading. Really? I can say something is poorly designed, what the fuck is wrong with that? Cards can be poorly designed, to act like they can't is pretty fucking stupid. But "poor design" isn't an argument to ban a card. It's like immediately killing off a kid that's born retarded. Jesus give the guy a chance, if he doesn't kill people left and right, let him be even if he's not like other kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darj Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Graff, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss Mathematician Scarm, Malebranche of the Burning Abyss Tour Guide from the Underworld The Nekroz Armor of Trishula Instant Fusion Preparation of Rites Reinforcement of the Army Ambushed Ritual Beast Sinister Shadow Games Skill Drain Vanity's Emptiness Kannahawk the Tamed Ritual Beast Reborn Tengu I disagree with the following hits as well. Hitting all BA monsters and TGU is too much, and Cir is the main thing that makes the deck so stupid since it recycles EVERYTHING really. Trishula I explained before, and I don't get the Mathematician limit? RotA and Rites aren't THAT dangerous, seriously, maybe Rites are due to Nekroz, but RotA certainly isn't. Instant Fusion isn't a threat without Noden. Ambushed Ritual Beast, really? Skill Drain and Vanity are like Soul Charge, either @3 so you can consistently expect them and prepare for them, or @0 so they don't exist. @1 they are way too sacky. I'd argue if Shadow Games is really limitable, but it DOES do a lot of things for the deck. Kannahawk I explained before as well. And Tengu is another case of Synchros not being that scary any longer. I agree that hitting the main 3 BAs + TGU is too much, but to be honest I don't have an idea on how to handle them. Some say hit TGU, others say no. Personally I would hit TGU first because it's an instant Rank3 whenever it is played. Also, didn't you suggest to limit TGU in your starting list? And now you want it Semi-Limited? What exactly changed? Limit on Mathematician because I believe it has an impact on the game. I mean, it's a walking Foolish Burial, which is currently Limited, that either floats when attacked or encourages the opponent to spend resources on it to remove it by an effect. Limit on Instant Fusion because Noden will be available in the tournament, since the idea is to allow both OCG and TCG cards for more accurate tests. I'm all in for banning Drain. It's just that I decided to Limit it first to not be too harsh with the hit and follow TCGs treatment on floodgates (Macro, Fissure and Soul Drain are at 1), but it may as well be gone for good. Same applies to Vanity Emptiness: as a floodgate, I decided to Limit it first, but it can be banned. I agree on Tengu. I actually was thinking in removing it from the list and see how it does first. The hits on Ritual Beasts were recommendations from other members. I have no clue on how the archetype exactly works so I don't have an opinion on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 The Jars are banned because nr1 creates potential MASSIVE advantage and plays that shouldn't be there, and to completely destroy any jackpot 7 decks because konami hates alternate win conditions, Number 2 for whatever reason there is, idk. In my opinion Vanity's has to be there in order to stop excessive boards. I mean, when your opponent wants to go for double Void Ogre and another big beater, or even a double dante with a few backrow, those two are both absolutely phenomenal boards you can't get around any way soon. Vanity's Emptiness stops that by being a constant threat and it increases the balance in the game, also it has a built in drawback so whyyyyyy should we ban it. It seems to me it's just hated and therefore not seen from a neutral standpoint. I love the card, I played it even before it was hyped as it is right now - no one cared about it up to now, even not in the Shaddol/BA/Stellarknight format where it already would have been an awesome card. It is good, yes, it is annoying, yes, but it's nowhere near broken. In my opinion a necessary evil. The problem is that if the Vanity is gone immediately by MST, that completely eliminates the purpose of the card. So it's either you flip Vanity and they have to get around a usually 1800-2800 beater to turn off the card (Which is basically instant scoop to certain Decks), or you flip the card and it gets MST'd and the exact same plays resume. Where is the balance in that? Also, what the hell are you saying, in the Shaddoll/BA/S-Knight format, Vanity DEFINED THE ENTIRE FORMAT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Also, didn't you suggest to limit TGU in your starting list? And now you want it Semi-Limited? What exactly changed? Because I kinda realized TGU lets lots of other decks, like stupid Frightfurs, to somehow work. Limit on Mathematician because I believe it has an impact on the game. I mean, it's a walking Foolish Burial, which is currently Limited, that either floats when attacked or encourages the opponent to spend resources on it to remove it by an effect. It's not really a Foolish Burial since it takes up your Normal Summon (relevant) and can't hit anything level higher than 4, like D-Hero Malicious for example. Limit on Instant Fusion because Noden will be available in the tournament, since the idea is to allow both OCG and TCG cards for more accurate tests. OH, that changes things. Then go for it. I'm all in for banning Drain. It's just that I decided to Limit it first to not be too harsh with the hit and follow TCGs treatment on floodgates (Macro, Fissure and Soul Drain are at 1), but it may as well be gone for good. Same applies to Vanity Emptiness: as a floodgate, I decided to Limit it first, but I could ban it. 0 or 3. Trust me. You either can outplay it or don't worry about it at all. I agree on Tengu. I actually was thinking in removing it from the list and see how it does first. Yep. The hits on Ritual Beasts were recommendations from other members. I have no clue on how the archetype exactly works so I don't have an opinion on them. Not needed, deck isn't threatening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goddamnit names are a pain Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Vanity's is decent attempt to be an answer to swarming, but it does a piss poor job of being "fair" or "balanced". It either gets hit instantly or one-sidedly wins games. Get rid of one of them? Oh, sorry, here's the other 2. AND it's relevant as fuck/has an impact. It needs the axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CLG Klavier Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Vanity's is decent attempt to be an answer to swarming, but it does a piss poor job of being "fair" or "balanced". It either gets hit instantly or one-sidedly wins games. Get rid of one of them? Oh, sorry, here's the other 2. AND it's relevant as fuck/has an impact. It needs the axe. Then some other out to swarming is needed. Like unlimiting Torrential or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Forgive me if this train has moved to a different subject but, Can I just say that impact should have something to do with it? Because if a card is fairly badly designed in an aspect then it ahouldnt get auto listed if its innocent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VampireofDarkness Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I agree that hitting the main 3 BAs + TGU is too much, but to be honest I don't have an idea on how to handle them. Some say hit TGU, others say no. Personally I would hit TGU first because it's an instant Rank3 whenever it is played. Also, didn't you suggest to limit TGU in your starting list? And now you want it Semi-Limited? What exactly changed? Limit on Mathematician because I believe it has an impact on the game. I mean, it's a walking Foolish Burial, which is currently Limited, that either floats when attacked or encourages the opponent to spend resources on it to remove it by an effect. Limit on Instant Fusion because Noden will be available in the tournament, since the idea is to allow both OCG and TCG cards for more accurate tests. I'm all in for banning Drain. It's just that I decided to Limit it first to not be too harsh with the hit and follow TCGs treatment on floodgates (Macro, Fissure and Soul Drain are at 1), but it may as well be gone for good. Same applies to Vanity Emptiness: as a floodgate, I decided to Limit it first, but it can be banned. I agree on Tengu. I actually was thinking in removing it from the list and see how it does first. The hits on Ritual Beasts were recommendations from other members. I have no clue on how the archetype exactly works so I don't have an opinion on them. Mathematician was only REALLY relevant when it was a standard first turn move. Though Shaddolls still use it, BA were the main contender, who used it as the most ideal first turn before Virgil and Fire Lake turned the Deck into an aggro fest because Math made a really silly 2 Deck thin that in reality didn't do a thing. It's fancy, but that's bout it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Self-Destruct Button Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 The problem is that if the Vanity is gone immediately by MST, that completely eliminates the purpose of the card. So it's either you flip Vanity and they have to get around a usually 1800-2800 beater to turn off the card (Which is basically instant scoop to certain Decks), or you flip the card and it gets MST'd and the exact same plays resume. Where is the balance in that? Also, what the hell are you saying, in the Shaddoll/BA/S-Knight format, Vanity DEFINED THE ENTIRE FORMAT! Maybe I error'd a bit with my memory there, though saying it defined the entire format is simply wrong. The Decks define the format, not single cards - unless they're archetype-specific. (see: Spellbook of Judgment) Vantiy's is perfectly fine, as it can be baited out, it's often a -2 (not only by MST, also by Dark Hole, Mirror Force, destruction by battle, etc etc) and is only REALLY good if your opponent doesnt expect or play around it. It's fine as it is, because unlike Sp of Judgment, Super Rejuvenation and or other power cards that are banned, it's a potential minus with no benefit for the player using it and it has a LOT of counterplay. Also everone can run it that wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinny Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Then some other out to swarming is needed. Like unlimiting Torrential or something. Also lose a turn is fairly balanced and stops Otks and gives summon sickness with effect negate etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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