Premier Alexander Romanov Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 You know, the recent controversy with Djinngate has gotten me thinking about what it means to play this game. Is this game really so difficult that you have to trick your opponent just to gain an edge? Is it really fair to play Vanity's Emptiness and Mind Crush against people, cards that promote undermining and destroying your opponent? And why do so many people seem to only focus on their own personal fun, instead of making sure both sides have a good time? After all, isn't this a game, and aren't games played to have fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Flyer - Sakura Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 #1: I wouldn't say the game's gotten difficult, but for older players, it can be problematic with all of the new rulings and things, plus the power creep to certain things. #2: Unfortunately, Yugioh has essentially turned into a money game and to the point where you HAVE to side in (anti-) floodgates or something to deal with Vanity's and stuff; otherwise you're dead meat. Look at Nekroz and a lot of the other meta things IRL; former costs about as much as a year's worth of college textbooks; and a lot of the staples run in the $50-150+ range. As Konami makes more stuff, the things you need to do change. #3/4: Yeah it's supposed to be a fun game for 2-players (or more, but let's keep it standard). It wouldn't be nice to some little kid IRL if you were to use a meta-tested Deck against his random stuff and he loses badly. I suppose we can say that players have that drive to win, no matter what, and are willing to fork over the necessary funds needed to play the metagame and beat everyone else. -- YGO is technically a strategy game, but indeed Mind Crush and Vanity's change them into wars of attrition and such by locking off certain options or hitting them in areas that are hard to recover from. So in a way, things are getting more competitive than they're actually worth. Though I have been asking Nai about what's good in the metagame right now (and can be built on a budget for RL), so I shouldn't be complaining that the game is getting too competitive. Then again, I don't play DN/YGOPro often (at least not player battles in the latter case) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(GigaDrillBreaker) Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 YGO is technically a strategy game, but indeed Mind Crush and Vanity's change them into wars of attrition and such by locking off certain options or hitting them in areas that are hard to recover from. So in a way, things are getting more competitive than they're actually worth. Though floodgates certainly aren't fun to run into, they are what prevents this game from being a matter of who has a better opening hand and gets to go second. That is not strategy. That is luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 "Is it really fair to play Vanity's Emptiness and Mind Crush against people, cards that promote undermining and destroying your opponent?" But, that's one of the main points of Yugioh. If shafting your opponent by stopping their plays was against what Yugioh is about, then trap cards wouldn't exist. Yeah, they're badly designed, but Yugioh is defined by bad design...and regularly pissing off its playerbase. "Is this game really so difficult that you have to trick your opponent just to gain an edge?" There's nothing wrong with mindgames. It's been a thing in games for an eternity. Hell, trap cards are a mind game built into the actual game. "And why do so many people seem to only focus on their own personal fun, instead of making sure both sides have a good time?" Because fun is subjective, and everyone's definition of fun is different. If players lowered themselves to appease their opponents, they wouldn't win as often. If my opponent hates losing, should I help them beat me? "After all, isn't this a game, and aren't games played to have fun?" This argument is actually pretty ignorant to how card games are designed to be played. About the Djinngate, competitive Yugioh players spend probably $1200+ per format (likely more,) plus more money on tournaments that from what I've gathered, don't offer prize support good enough to make up for the money spent for the deck. Of course you're going to do whatever it takes to win a tournament. With all that money wasted on a deck that will get destroyed next format, you would be a moron not to do what Hoban did. I mean, it isn't that big of a deal. Deception has been a core part of Yugioh since Duelist Kingdom (or, Battle City at the latest,) despite what blatant lies the anime tells us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet MS Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Now I'm curious about Djinngate. Could anyone care to summarize? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Crouton Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 Now I'm curious about Djinngate. Could anyone care to summarize? From the DGz topic: "So all I am seeing around Zodiac and on my Facebook is there are people really upset with Hoban on what he did. For those who don't know Hoban was facing the mirror with Nekroz and siding Hoban asked his opponent want to side out djinn releaser, opponent agreed and both players sided out their main decked djinn but Hoban had another one sided and AFTER HE SIDED THE DJINN HE SAID HE WOULD he sided the other one in. Many people believe that this was unethical and lying to your opponent is cheating. Hoban never really lied considering he did say he was siding the one out but what are your guys opinions on this matter ? Is it unethical and morally wrong for what he did? Or was this smart on his part considering he is playing to win and he used this as a strategy. Personally I'm tired of seeing it and Zodiac is all but nothing but aids and idiots on that page so I rather get an opinion on here." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleepy Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 My opinions on the subject are the same as this video's. Answering to the OP, there is a difference between going to a big event to play and casually playing with friends. One is for fun's sake, and on the other one you are trying to get a prize. It might not be cash or even enough to make up the cost of the deck, but still you are seeking something. I believe etiquette is etiquette regardless of which one it is, but what I mean is that there's a certain drive other than just fun depending on where you are playing it. There are acceptable ways to trick your opponent in this game. Trap Cards are a built-in mechanic, and even if the face-down card is a bluff, even if you are just asking about reactions before Damage Step with no Honest in hand, or if you randomly check your face-downs when your opponent is doing something and that makes them think you have something prepared, those are all silent mind games, and your opponent is the one that will ultimately decide in-game if they want to take those into account or just charge anyways. What happened at that event falls under having rigged the opponent IMO. No matter the game or even the activity in general, you'll always meet some selfish people. I know of this one guy that is pretty experienced but once in a while will come out with random crap like "Bottomless banishes first" to see what sticks, even when the game is as casual as can be. Me having played for 15 years find myself face-palming internally at the idea that he expected any of the present people that day to actually buy that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 #1: It is. The gap in skill at the top level is so minute that anything that will give you a slight advantage but doesn't fall into the realm of cheating is pretty good, especially at a major event. Don't forget there's thousands of dollars at stake here, as well as a massive amount of pride, so there's not a lot people won't do in order to get the wins. #2: whut #3: Because there are different types of player. Some people like to mess about and have fun playing interesting decks, whereas others like to win, and get a thrill from sitting at top tables of events, winning games, topping events and being a respected member of the worldwide yugioh community. #4: I don't think you understand that people have fun in different ways. Some people, myself included, have fun winning and playing exciting games. A Nekroz mirror can be just as fun as Aliens vs Gladiator Beasts in its own way because the game still requires thinking. Also, I for one find that the thing I enjoy most about yugioh is not actually playing the game but travelling across the country to different events, meeting a wide variety of people and making friends through the game. I really don't enjoy playing on DN mainly because there's just no interaction and often the interaction there is is with random keyboard warriors who think because they're sitting behind a computer screen they can badmouth anyone they want and act in a way they never would IRL. Finally, people like to win, as I mentioned before. There's a massive thrill from doing well in an event, as well as obviously a pretty good reward, and it's a really good feeling to be looked up to by people. Regarding Djinngate itself, it's not cheating but it's very bad ethics and gamesmanship to the highest degree. I'm extremely disappointed at Hoban for trying to defend himself technically because he and everyone else knows he's in the wrong here, and by trying to justify his actions using game mechanics and technicalities rather than just admitting that it was bad sportsmanship I think he's made himself look a lot more of a dick than if he'd just said he'd done it to gain a (questionably) unfair advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I've spoken with Julia Hedberg and Jim McMahan about this and they both think it's one of the most disgusting, disrespectful, dishonest and grossly unsportsmanlike displays of misconduct they have ever seen in their combined years of running tournaments. However, Jim is also a hypocrite as he removed his post calling out "whoever engaged in" this misconduct after he found out it was Hoban. Apparently it's okay if it's one of your star players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premier Alexander Romanov Posted March 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I've spoken with Julia Hedberg and Jim McMahan about this Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Who? Konami's judge manager and the head of ARG respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premier Alexander Romanov Posted March 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 Konami's judge manager and the head of ARG respectively. How does Masao know them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihop Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 How does Masao know them? Could be any number of reasons. The yugioh community is pretty interlinked, I'm not exactly a top player nor do I travel a lot but even I've met my fair share of important yugioh-based people, among them Pat Hoban and Simon He. But anyway, that doesn't really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultravires Posted March 27, 2015 Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 How does Masao know them? I'm pretty well-known in the online community as a judge, source of knowledge and historian for the game, particularly on Facebook where most open discussions regarding the judge pool and OTS/non-OTS tournaments occur. I interact with Julia every once in a while when issues like this come up. As far as knowing Jim, he posts a lot of very unprofessional slams and personal opinions on Facebook (some I agree with, others I don't) and I've approached ARG with ways of improving the brand, but Jim is not known for his sound business decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premier Alexander Romanov Posted March 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 I'm pretty well-known in the online community as a judge, source of knowledge and historian for the game, particularly on Facebook where most open discussions regarding the judge pool and OTS/non-OTS tournaments occur. I interact with Julia every once in a while when issues like this come up. As far as knowing Jim, he posts a lot of very unprofessional slams and personal opinions on Facebook (some I agree with, others I don't) and I've approached ARG with ways of improving the brand, but Jim is not known for his sound business decisions. Huh. Color me impressed. You're the YGO version of Bennett the Sage. And that is most assuredly a compliment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.