Same-sex marriage

[Azure Wolf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32443730

 

http://abc7news.com/news/supreme-court-hears-same-sex-marriage-arguments/685096/

 

These two have really got me thinking, what is the point in either not having it legalized or out right banned. In Northern Ireland there was already an uproar caused because a bakery company refused to make a pro-gay marriage cake on religious grounds, not sure about anything in the US. But anyway discuss these and thoughts on same-sex marriage in general.

[Resident Fascist]

In an ideal world, people wouldn't care about what two responsible adults do with their genitalia or who you find sexually attractive. There are literally no species on this planet that can remove humans from the top of the food chain at this point, so the argument of a homosexual couple being unable to produce children is somewhat becoming moot (Ignoring the fact there is now technology to allow two lesbians to have a child, albeit it will always be a female). If there is any species that could hypothetically remove us from the top of the food chain, it would come from space at this point. At this point, this planet is basically ours. We aren't in need of couples who can mate to keep the species around, so honestly, I usually tend to find people opposed to homosexuality are opposed because a book tells them so, or they were taught it's "wrong" by their peers and family, unfortunately we indoctrinate each other into a toxic set of beliefs we find supposedly desirable in society, and reject anything somewhat different. As a sentient species, I'm honestly disappointed we are still fighting amongst each other and applying stigmas to how others choose to live.

 

 Rejecting a customer because they are homosexual is ridiculous, and honestly, while it shouldn't be allowed, companies that do it regularly tend to go out of business much sooner due to denying a portion of their business.

 

EDIT: Viccy really likes to point out that at this point, the point is at this point.

[Lunar Origins]

I believe the general attitude of YCM is "who the hell gives a damn at this point".

 

It's a right that people deserve.  You should be able to marry who you want.  End of question.

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

I believe the general attitude of YCM is "who the hell gives a damn at this point".

 

It's a right that people deserve.  You should be able to marry who you want.  End of question.

Pretty much this. Mostly this is what you'll get from basically everyone here.

 

Also just saying. I love that the first and second post (OP and first reply) have avatars that are Honedge and Doublade gijinka.

[I Hate Snatch Steal]

Funny there should be a topic about this. I just read the debate summary here:

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2015/04/28/live-blog-gay-marriage-arguments-at-supreme-court-tuesday/

 

I honestly wonder who taught some of these people how to debate:

"Was there gay marraige in ancient Greece?"

 

The argument seemed very poorly done on both sides. When someone was saying "who else has legalized this around the world" A good response would be, "Who else had a democracy in the 1700s?"

 

Also, I'm surprised no one is being scientific about any of this. There have been studies on various sexualities but all I heard from both sides was ideology and religion.

 

My view is that gay marriage should be allowed. In fact, all consenual, non harmful sexual practices should be.

[Blake]

Honestly, I can understand not wanting to make a cake for a gay couple. It's not very professional, but it is very human.

 

If it bothers you, then it bothers you. You can't force everyone to be comfortable with everything. Screaming change at people has the opposite reaction.

 

If it causes them to lose business, it's on their heads, but don't try to force them to be tolerant. That makes things worse because you're being equally intolerant as they are, though you may have what you feel is the moral high ground... but so do they.

 

I don't like tolerance arguments at all. I don't like using "subjectivity" as an argument. But if you want things to change, you don't hoot and holler, you tackle it humanely. And guess what? Some people won't change. You can't force them to.

 

If someone turned you away for said cake, and then you fight until they're required to make it by law... You should be expecting some spit or something in the cake, for sure. You don't want that service anyways, as it's going to be less than optimal.

 

It's not okay, in a vacuum, to deny them the cake... but you have to let other people take theirs at their own pace.

 

People tend to overreeact to people not caring for homosexuality (not saying anything about these, general point), but you have to understand that people come rom different lifestyles and feel differently about things. You can't change that in a day, and waging a proverbial war on them just makes them think you're intolerant fucks. Ironic, huh?

 

Not defending the idea of turning gay customers away, but, at the end of the day, the only person it really hurts is the vendor themself.

[CLG Klavier]

Honestly, I can understand not wanting to make a cake for a gay couple. It's not very professional, but it is very human.
 
If it bothers you, then it bothers you. You can't force everyone to be comfortable with everything. Screaming change at people has the opposite reaction.
 
If it causes them to lose business, it's on their heads, but don't try to force them to be tolerant. That makes things worse because you're being equally intolerant as they are, though you may have what you feel is the moral high ground... but so do they.
 
I don't like tolerance arguments at all. I don't like using "subjectivity" as an argument. But if you want things to change, you don't hoot and holler, you tackle it humanely. And guess what? Some people won't change. You can't force them to.
 
If someone turned you away for said cake, and then you fight until they're required to make it by law... You should be expecting some spit or something in the cake, for sure. You don't want that service anyways, as it's going to be less than optimal.
 
It's not okay, in a vacuum, to deny them the cake... but you have to let other people take theirs at their own pace.
 
People tend to overreeact to people not caring for homosexuality (not saying anything about these, general point), but you have to understand that people come rom different lifestyles and feel differently about things. You can't change that in a day, and waging a proverbial war on them just makes them think you're intolerant fucks. Ironic, huh?
 
Not defending the idea of turning gay customers away, but, at the end of the day, the only person it really hurts is the vendor themself.

My. Fucking. God.

You spoke my own mind better than anyone else ever could, even me.

[Tentacruel]

There's so much push back towards complete legalization because, generally, there's a certain stigma that by allowing the law to change you're admitting you're wrong and/or compromising your beliefs.  We may go on about how obvious it sounds to just let people do what they want because, after all, who cares?  But there's plenty of vile assholes on the other side of this.  There's a certain assumption in some cases that allowing people to do what they want is not what's being debated, but what is morally right and justified.  

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Men taste better than cake anyway~

[Simping For Hina]

I'll marry who ever the fuck I love and decide to marry. There is nothing more to put. 

[Azure Wolf]

The strange thing is in Northern Ireland you can still enter a civil partnership but can't get married. Though anything relating to religion isn't allowed during the ceremony and you have to be at least 21 rather than the usual 16 for minimum requirements.

 

Off topic for a bit while I complain about age laws. At 16 you can get married and have kids, own a house, live by yourself, start learning how to drive and win the lottery, but can't buy a full cutlery set. I know the reason is to cut down on knife attacks but you can still buy plastic knives and those can cut a lot more easily than metal butter knives.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

The strange thing is in Northern Ireland you can still enter a civil partnership but can't get married. Though anything relating to religion isn't allowed during the ceremony and you have to be at least 21 rather than the usual 16 for minimum requirements.

 

This I don't mind. Marriage by any other name is more diplomatic.

[Cin]

Does it really matter who marries who? Why do we still have to care about something that does actually matter (In the sense it doesn't affect our lives so why do we decide it's an issue)

[J-Max]

As far as I am concerned. If two members of the same Gender love each other enough to tie the knot then there shouldn't be a problem with it. Problem is, quite a few people have their heads shoved up their arse about the Taboo of a Homosexual relationship. What sickens me more is that people are just fine with two Lesbians being together as it is more "Sexy" but two guys? Almost everyone I talk about this mention the fact they have no problem with Girl x Girl yet Guy x Guy repulses them. Fucking Hypocrites....

[G4hardcore]

As long as I don't have to marry another man, I think I'll be alright.

[Northern Sage]

As long as I don't have to marry another man, I think I'll be alright.

I am reasonably sure *no one* will force you to marry another man, in the same way no one will force me to marry a woman.

[Lt. Colonel Remo]

Honestly, I can understand not wanting to make a cake for a gay couple. It's not very professional, but it is very human.

 

If it bothers you, then it bothers you. You can't force everyone to be comfortable with everything. Screaming change at people has the opposite reaction.

 

If it causes them to lose business, it's on their heads, but don't try to force them to be tolerant. That makes things worse because you're being equally intolerant as they are, though you may have what you feel is the moral high ground... but so do they.

 

I don't like tolerance arguments at all. I don't like using "subjectivity" as an argument. But if you want things to change, you don't hoot and holler, you tackle it humanely. And guess what? Some people won't change. You can't force them to.

 

If someone turned you away for said cake, and then you fight until they're required to make it by law... You should be expecting some spit or something in the cake, for sure. You don't want that service anyways, as it's going to be less than optimal.

 

It's not okay, in a vacuum, to deny them the cake... but you have to let other people take theirs at their own pace.

 

People tend to overreeact to people not caring for homosexuality (not saying anything about these, general point), but you have to understand that people come rom different lifestyles and feel differently about things. You can't change that in a day, and waging a proverbial war on them just makes them think you're intolerant fucks. Ironic, huh?

 

Not defending the idea of turning gay customers away, but, at the end of the day, the only person it really hurts is the vendor themself.

I seriously need to like this twice, but just to play devils advocate, the same exact argument could made for Black/White segregation in stores. Of course, Jim Crow laws were inacted by the actual government, but still yeah.

 

Honestly, marriage shouldn't even be regulated by the state anymore, there's no real point. I'd imagine the purpose of giving tax breaks and such to couples would be to increase marriages and therefore the population, but I think we hardly need that motivation as a society and its not really going to fulfill a purpose since plenty of people have children without getting married and plenty of same-sex couples don't necessarily have children (although they can still adopt etc.). Pretty much only private institutions like airlines or insurance really care (for giving deals I'd imagine, and organization), and honestly since they're private they can be left to their own discretion (as Black argued). Too many people keep getting left out of "marriage" and what certain couples can do, so rather than having to fight all these battles little by little it makes more sense to just eliminate the middle man i.e. the State from something largely between two people. Pretty sure Republicans get a hard-on for small government so they would probably agree too. Not sure if this works over-seas but yeah my 2 cents. 

[G4hardcore]

I am reasonably sure *no one* will force you to marry another man.

Hahaha, so am I, Sage. Honestly though, homosexuality is viewed very negatively on both sides of my family. I don't have anything personal against it, but my mind is hardwired to think of it a certain way because of my upbringing. Now, I'm an adult, and I can think for myself, but I can't deny that I get a bit awkward around gay people. This is coming from someone who doesn't have a problem with them personally, I even used to live with two gay guys. That being said, that has nothing to do with gay marriage. Regarding that, I think it's odd, but not as stupid as, say, Jim Crow laws.

[CLG Klavier]

The thing that bothers me about thise debates is that they mostly cause arguments based on different viewpoints, and don't really go anywhere even if they don't screw up. Same for religion, politics etc.

[Azure Wolf]

Being brought up in with a Christian background and living in a Christian country, I sort was brought up under the belief that homosexuality is wrong. Though I sort of just didn't care, in my eyes people are people, and no matter who you are, if you try and hit on me out of now where I probably will ignore you, anymore than that and I will hit you with the nearest object, be it a chair or so on.

 

I don't have any personal opinions against gay people, and constructing laws to prevent them from getting married is sort of breach on their humanity. Putting religion aside, people get married because they want to be together for life. I actually not sure if I have met anyone who was openly gay, I did attend a integrated school so racism and stuff wasn't as tolerable, but I think with the way people have been brought up for generations over here has created an image of what people think.

 

Regarding Asher's, I'm not sure their sales where really damaged, they are one of the largest local supplies of bakery products here so there isn't much of a choice in some areas for stuff. They were in their rights to deny the order but still should have came out with the reason before the uproar was caused.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Now, I'm an adult, and I can think for myself, but I can't deny that I get a bit awkward around gay people.

 

It happens. I tend to get awkward around straight people, which makes me pretty awkward in general. :S

[Blake]

[background=#fbfdfe]It happens. I tend to get awkward around straight people, which makes me pretty awkward in general. :S[/background]

Ah, but are you a bisexual male who is uncomfortable around flamboyantly gay males? And masculine women.

pointles silliness aside, the upbringing is the reason why I'm not more judgmental of those who are opposed to homosexuality than those for it. I completely understand. I never thought of them as less than human, having homosexual/bi friends at different points in life, plus a lesbian grandma... But I still thought it was wrong. It's just hard to shake it. I think I mostly have, but... Yeah, I understand people who have troubles, considering I still have them after coming to terms with myself.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Ah, but are you a bisexual male who is uncomfortable around flamboyantly gay males? And masculine women.

 

Interesting! But where do you find these types? Sounds like you've had your fill of exposure to some LGBT rights group or something. But yeah I find extraverted people in general to be insufferable at a certain point, including flamboyant gays. Masculine women I don't have any more of a problem with than feminine woman, but then again being gay I'm rather awkward around women in general, particularly given that they tend to assume I'm straight since I don't wear my sexuality on my sleeve IRL due to stigma and such complications as alienating the odd close straight male friend I might have. For dating and such I'll generally go online.

[Cool Girl]

I have always respected other people's sexuality!

 

I heard about this story of the baker in Ireland! I'm glad he refused to write a hateful message on a cake! Shame on that guy for ordering a cake like that! We need to keep in mind that our words and actions can be hurtful!

[G4hardcore]

[background=#fbfdfe]It happens. I tend to get awkward around straight people, which makes me pretty awkward in general. :S[/background]

You and I might just be awkward in general, all by ourselves. :P