Loop OTK's Should they be allowed?

[J-Max]

After recently covering the Desperate Tag and Madolche Waltz Loop OTK in my Madolche Guide it got me thinking. Should any Loop that causes a OTK without your opponent being able to Counter even be allowed? Not sure how often this is done in the high end of play but to me its a real lack of sportsmanship if all your opponent can do is watch as their Life Points are reduced to 0 with no way to Counter it. 

[Resident Fascist]

Loops that involve bad cards really aren't a problem. In most cases it's not the loop itself that's the problem, it's the ease of setting it up and the impact it has on the game for it's difficulty. Like, I don't care if you can win the game with 5 vastly specific cards, every good deck can do that, it's when two/three actually good cards combo together in some silly absurd manner literally every game, aka FrogTK. 

[chaoticjexak]

i think a loop is far more tame than an op card because you can notice the beginning of a loop play and counter it- but its more unlikely that you'll anticipate your opponent dropping the beelze.

[Resident Fascist]

i think a loop is far more tame than an op card because you can notice the beginning of a loop play and counter it- but its more unlikely that you'll anticipate your opponent dropping the beelze.

 

Except Beelze is not a good card, let alone an overpowered one.

[Toffee.]

i think a loop is far more tame than an op card because you can notice the beginning of a loop play and counter it- but its more unlikely that you'll anticipate your opponent dropping the beelze.

So.... All loops are "fair" because the opponent might topdeck some oddly specific card that shuts it down, IE, leaving the entire thing up to chance?
What are you playing at!?

[J-Max]

So.... All loops are "fair" because the opponent might topdeck some oddly specific card that shuts it down, IE, leaving the entire thing up to change?
What are you playing at!?

Exactly. The moment you have the Combo locked down, its Game Over. This is the part I hate about it the most. I actually felt Dirty mentioning it in my Guide. Also this was the main reason that Butterfly Dagger Elma was banned back in the day. That and Gearfried made a unstoppable loop.

 

By the way, I am not referring to things like Stalling and Burn. These can take a few turns to destroy the opponent giving them time to Counter later but instead I am referring to Combos that leave the opponent helpless. Heck even Exodia comes under this to a certain extent. Once you have the right cards ready, your opponent can do nothing.

[Cosmo.]

Idk if it's considered a loop, it's more of a lockdown, which is the Ghostrick nights + Nekomusune +Mansion, your opponent can counter it by just destroying one of the cards. But again i think this is just a lockdown.

[Tinkerer]

Whenever I think loop I think of Yami vs Strings. As cool as that was in the anime, no I don't think it's healthy if the game made anything easier than a 5-card unstoppable loop in the game.

At 5+ cards though, it becomes difficult to pull it off reliably so I think it might be more fair?

[J-Max]

Whenever I think loop I think of Yami vs Strings. As cool as that was in the anime, no I don't think it's healthy if the game made anything easier than a 5-card unstoppable loop in the game.

At 5+ cards though, it becomes difficult to pull it off reliably so I think it might be more fair?

The Madolche Waltz and Desperate Tag combo I am referring to requires 4 Cards to set it off but 2 of the key ones (Chateau and Waltz) can both be searched out by Messengelato (who is the Warrior-Type monster I recoomend for the Loop) meaning that you only really need Desperate Tag and maybe one of the Spell or Traps down to start the whole chain going.

[Trebuchet MS]

I believe loops are okay if it is sufficiently complex. More parts means more points where it can be taken apart - not to mention the impact on consistency. When a loop consists of 4 or more cards it takes more effort/luck to assemble, and if one tries to put it together over several turns they grant the opponent turns with which to potentially take down or stifle vital parts of the combo. And when you've gone through that much effort to get the loop going unhindered while also fending off an opponent who's, well, also trying to win, you pretty much deserve it for getting it to work.

[chaoticjexak]

Exactly. The moment you have the Combo locked down, its Game Over. This is the part I hate about it the most. I actually felt Dirty mentioning it in my Guide. Also this was the main reason that Butterfly Dagger Elma was banned back in the day. That and Gearfried made a unstoppable loop.

 

By the way, I am not referring to things like Stalling and Burn. These can take a few turns to destroy the opponent giving them time to Counter later but instead I am referring to Combos that leave the opponent helpless. Heck even Exodia comes under this to a certain extent. Once you have the right cards ready, your opponent can do nothing.

 

its my belief though that a decent player would know he locks and be able to counter them when they occur.that being said however- its not consistent enough to negate a lock unless you play something like counter-trap fairies. fair note that the new BA card may introduce a painful loop however (hostly i hope it stays in the ocg)- but i get the point. by no means am i calling a loop fair- I'm saying a standalone OP card is worse. i only know of the yata-garasu and beaver warier locks as the two to ever be hit- and I've seen far more standalone broken cards than painful locks (statistically speaking)

 

personally;

: i hate locks because i don't run a counter to them-but in my opinion thats my own fault. and you often don't need an 'oddly specific card' you need summit like dark bribe or breakthrough skill. FTks and things like yosenjus however? (yosenjus cis secret move…damn broken counter that is)  - NERF THEM TO HELL

[The Warden]

They're slippery slopes, but, so long as they aren't absurdly easy to set-up, it's fine. Some loops, OTK or otherwise, can be rather skilful. Especially if they require a lot of exact steps that can blow up at any time. However, FTK loops are right out. As they're flat unfair since your opponent literally can't counter them without hand traps. Whether or not they're fair is pretty much determined by how many cards needed, how many steps you need to do it in, and how easy it is to obtain the cards needed to do it.

[CLG Klavier]

Pretty much all of those new loops/OTKs are simply gimmicks that either need a very specific deck to be played in, or dillute a deck and end up making it weaker overally for OCCASIONAL OTKs. Not really worth it.

[J-Max]

Pretty much all of those new loops/OTKs are simply gimmicks that either need a very specific deck to be played in, or dillute a deck and end up making it weaker overally for OCCASIONAL OTKs. Not really worth it.

I understand where you are coming from but in a Single Game Format these \combos can kill. The Madolche one I mentioned just requires you to add a Desperate Tag or two. All the other cards I suggest running at 2 or 3 meaning that its very easy to splash it in and your Opponent won't see it coming.

 

In a Match format however, the Side Deck can help to Counter a Loop if they fell to it Game 1.

[chaoticjexak]

I understand where you are coming from but in a Single Game Format these \combos can kill. The Madolche one I mentioned just requires you to add a Desperate Tag or two. All the other cards I suggest running at 2 or 3 meaning that its very easy to splash it in and your Opponent won't see it coming.

 

In a Match format however, the Side Deck can help to Counter a Loop if they fell to it Game 1.

but then most with any level of skill will run at least one back row negation- probably several surely? and thing is- can that loop topple BA or Necroz? if it can't- konami won't care

[J-Max]

but then most with any level of skill will run at least one back row negation- probably several surely? and thing is- can that loop topple BA or Necroz? if it can't- konami won't care

The moment Desperate Tag and Madolche Waltz activates and you have suicided your Messengelato into your opponent's monster once without reply. Its over. Messengelato bounces back to your hand using Chateau and you resummon using Desperate Tag. Repeat until death.

[chaoticjexak]

isn't mst a thing though? surely pop the chateau- most run triple these days

[J-Max]

isn't mst a thing though? surely pop the chateau- most run triple these days

Actually, a majority of people run 1 if that in their main. The others go in their Side Deck. Spell and Trap Negation isn't as important anymore with Heavy Storm and the like gone.

[chaoticjexak]

well  as far as last format the meta was going crazy or stuff like fairy wind and cursed seal….. and i always run negation because battle traps.

[ihop]

Most people run none, Nekroz run 2 sometimes. Nekroz and Shaddoll are the two top decks now and neither really care about MST. It's only good in Nekroz because they actually need to get rid of Shaddolls' Mistake and the mirror match's Vanity's or Scolding.

 

I have no opinion on the loop stuff, most of them are so bad and weaken your deck so much that tbh being able to pull out an OTK is fair game if your deck is otherwise weaker.

[The Amazing Avian]

Consistent loops like what Wind-Up had with Hunter and Zenmaity are bad. Absurdly gimmicky ones like ZA WARUDO (more lockdown than loop, but you get the idea) are okay since they require a lot of setting up to be able to do and are really easy to stop. I mean really, if you let someone ZA WARUDO you, it's your own fault and you would probably be laughing anyway because it actually worked.

[DoctorMiracle]

True, OTK are sometimes cheap but if the OTK loop is complex like setting off a 5-8 card combo, it can certainly be legal unlike some loops that require 3 cards or so to set off. Also, I'm not sure if this is true since I haven't been playing in tournaments but I'm pretty sure that OTK combos or cards that set them off aren't really put in the meta decks as they need certain cards for the deck to work.

[chaoticjexak]

maybe im just thinking back to the days of bujins and mirror when it first came to 3