[Discussion] 1v1 Section Discussion and Suggestion/Improvement Thread

[Maeriberii Haan]

I think, it's been a while since we have something like this. Basically, I intend to have this thread regarding the above section for a while, but only remembered to make it recently.

 

Simply put, from time to time, there's several voices saying that the section needs improvement, but what kind of improvement it needs, never really made clear.

 

So...in this thread, let's talk about the current state of the section. A more public discussion regarding suggestion/improvement could maybe finally shed some light on these unclear echoes.

 

I'll jump in with my own opinions later, but for now, let's see you all talk first.

 

(also putting it in Card Contests rather than 1v1 to make it more accessible and visible)

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

At the moment, the only 1v1 Contests we have right now are that of Striker's Leaderboard.

So yeah, the amount of those types of contests is rather low, compared to in the past.

 

The Leaderboard is a good start, yes, but I have the feeling it's giving off a sort-of elite vibe which may/may not encourage newer members to participate.

Although there is no rule saying that ALL 1v1s must be Leaderboard; you are certainly allowed to have a regular one just for fun.

 

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Then again, we did make you guys an Other TCG 1v1 for those who want to clash with other card games besides Yugioh, but no one's used it since its debut.

[Premier Alexander Romanov]

At the moment, the only 1v1 Contests we have right now are that of Striker's Leaderboard.

So yeah, the amount of those types of contests is rather low, compared to in the past.

 

The Leaderboard is a good start, yes, but I have the feeling it's giving off a sort-of elite vibe which may/may not encourage newer members to participate.

Although there is no rule saying that ALL 1v1s must be Leaderboard; you are certainly allowed to have a regular one just for fun.

 

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Then again, we did make you guys an Other TCG 1v1 for those who want to clash with other card games besides Yugioh, but no one's used it since its debut.

Also, from what I've seen, Striker seems to be repeating the same contest over and over again.
Get him to stop obsessing with recurring LV1s and to come up with something interesting.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

You mean for the current contests, or altogether?

The LV1 stuff is for the current round of that Leaderboard opener; not much I can do about it.

 

Although I'm not really keeping an eye on that tournament thread in here.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Also, from what I've seen, Striker seems to be repeating the same contest over and over again.
Get him to stop obsessing with recurring LV1s and to come up with something interesting.

If you are referring to my tournament, Sakura said that was the round requirements. Have to keep it consistent somehow for each match. And I'm all ears, guys.

[VCR_CAT]

Well, alright then.

From my experience, the 1v1 system is very dysfunctional, and I'm going to start at one piece and work my way through.

First off, I'm still quite disappointed that a participant can be disqualified from a contest due to an unwritten rule. Not only is this very unfair for new participants, but even as I look back after my experience nothing has changed in the rules and how they're written. All rules that can result in disqualification need to be as explicit and obvious as possible; the system needs to be idiot-proof. For any contest to have unwritten rules that result in serious consequences is completely unfriendly for new participants and practically forces them to experience these things from trial and error like I did; it's not a good system.

And on the topic of anonymity (which is specifically what I'm referring to); it's practically useless in the contest voting. Regardless if someone knows whose cards are whose, it should be very clear if bias or cheating is happening from the contents of the vote. And even if there IS bias and the reasons they give are good, then why does the bias matter? Since there already is a system for participants to reject votes, it seems pointless to have anonymity to be a part of it when it's already particularly difficult for someone to give bad reasons in their votes.

 

Except the voting system does not work either. I think in total, hardly 50% of the matches in this past tournament resulted in conclusions thanks to sufficient votes, and the idea that a match can stop after only one vote is honestly kind of ridiculous. The voting system is far from air-tight, and if this past tournament has anything to say it's that it's actually very, very flawed. And even then, the votes themselves say to give good reasons, but so many votes and judgments actually were not that good and would have resulted in bad outcomes if a contestant doesn't speak-up (but that system is already vaguely introduced and poorly implemented). A primary source I have is actually my very first round where a completely ludicrous card would have won had I not spoken up; but then it did anyways because despite how much time I had spent looking over the rules to make sure I was doing things right I still ended up being disqualified for an unwritten rule. Simply put, most voters will not be good judges of cards (and I can cite more examples), and a winning card hardly ends up being proof that the card is well-designed. The system as a whole is broken in terms of "The best card will win" and something needs to change.

 

The prompts for the individual rounds were also incredibly vague and too open to interpretation. To simply say "A level 4 or lower WATER monster" could mean literally anything. Simply giving only one effect as well feels like too little; the prompts need to be more narrowed down (but not too narrowed down) to make the contest more of a creative endeavor than simply people making what they want. And as Dan points out, it's beginning to sound like these themes are just being recycled. Creativity tends to shine best in an environment with limitations; things need to not be left so vague.

 

I would also like to point out that there's way too much emphasis on a card's effectiveness and impact on the meta over its design and creativity. A card could be designed to be like drops of dew hitting the pavement, or particles trying to balance out the total energy in a given system, and none of that matters because what matters most is if the card is actually good or not. Of course, in the extreme cases a broken card should not win, but on the flipside I don't think a bland and uninspired card should win either. Cards should win based not only on effectiveness and usefulness, but on creativity AND if the card would be fun to use or not. Even if a card's strength is kind of mediocre, if it's functional and looks like something you can work into a deck and have some fun with, shouldn't that be enough? Our judgment of cards should not just be if we can win the card; it should be if we can use it and have a fun game with it and do some interesting combos and moves. And I'm guilty of this as well; A few of my votes tended to be looking at a card and seeing which one I would use in a competitive environment as much as I tried to take into account the card's creativity and usefulness, and I need to change that. I think we all need to change how we look at cards and not focus on the meta-game and competitive environment as much. We need to look at cards and think "That's a cool design! I could do some fun stuff with that!"

 

So here's changes I propose:

• ALL RULES that result in disqualification need to be written and as accessible as possible, and even the rule saying you can change rules be removed entirely. If the rules are good, there should be no reason to have a rule that says you can do whatever you want and nobody can say otherwise.
• Anonymity is pointless in the system, and even now is poorly enforced. In my past two matches I went against the same person and both instances I was the only one with card art. Gee I wonder which card was mine.
• Prompts need to be redesigned to offer better limitations but also promote creativity more.
• Personal criteria needs to shift away from the competitive side of the game, which right now it's heavily leaning towards, and we as a whole need to focus on the creativity and fun-factor of the cards more.
• The voting system needs to be either changed entirely, or removed entirely and I'll explain a different system below.

My first idea for a new voting system is to collect a select group of judges that vote on the cards. They don't need to give scores, but they would be the ones conducting the actual voting. Of course, you would need enough judges so that they can judge all the cards without spending too much time. As well, these judges should be voted in by the community, NOT by some judging exam or chosen by a couple people. Choose people that the community feels are good critics of cards. And really, you kind of already expect 3+ people to take the time to give these kind of judgments over each match in a given time, what different would it be then to have a select group of 3-15 or so people who will do that? It would be much better to have a select group of people do this sort of thing and almost guarantee a justified victory instead of cop-out victory of one vote after a time-out. And of course, card creators can still dispute votes so long as they give good reasons.

 

I understand that RL issues can come into play; but I'm not saying they need to take hours to vote. Voting can actually be as short as 15 minutes or so, and if there's a group of 1v1 voters agreed upon by the participants themselves as good judges, the system should be a lot more effective in getting now only sufficient votes but quality votes as well.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

You realize that not all contests have to be Leaderboard-sanctioned, correct?

 

As for the standards, yeah it is more/less going in the direction of metagame usage and balancing issues; creativity does need to be factored (and it is, to some extent).

 

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With regards to negating votes, just keep in mind Nai and I (along with Zex) reserve the right to do it also if the need arises; although we rarely exercise that authority.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

Since we are talking about section improvement, allow me to pull this out for review and revision.

 

[spoiler=Current Leaderboard Rules]

1. Post the link to your 1v1 here with the result. Your result will not count without these.

2. Thread titles must include [Leaderboard] to count.

3. 1v1s that count for the Leaderboard must have the following requirement:

I. First to 3 votes wins or person with the most votes after 72 hours from card submission wins.

II. All votes must have a valid reason.

i. The contestants have the right to invalidate a vote if the reason is not sufficient.

ii. If a dispute develops between a contestant and a voter, I have final say unless a mod intervenes.

4. Do not scam me. If you do, you will be warned. Cheating will not be tolerated.

5. If you get a name change, tell me when you post your next win so I don’t get it confused.

6. Winners will be determined by Win-Loss record, not straight up victories.

I. A person with a 5-0 record will be ranked higher than a person with a 5-1 record, etc.

7. A minimum of five 1v1s are required to qualify to win a Season Championship.

8. If there is a tie for 1st, the following will happen:

I. If two people tied, both must compete in a 1v1 against each other to break the tie

II. If three or more people tied, they must compete in a regular contest to break the tie.

III. If a tie resulted from someone winning a tiebreaker, then another tie breaker will not happen.

IV. If a tie for first happens, the loser of the tiebreaker becomes second and everyone below that person drops down to 3rd.

V. A tie for 2nd will result in both people winning the 2nd place prize, and 3rd place will not be awarded.

VI. A tie for 3rd will result in both people winning the 3rd place prize.

9. Near the end of the Spring/Fall Seasons, participants can nominate 3 people who they deem worthy of the Helpful Voter award.

I. Top 3 nominees will go to a final vote with the winner being the person with the most votes.

10. I have the right to end 1v1s when either the deadline has passed or when the vote target has been reached.

11. If someone asks a question about a 1v1's card requirements, they have the right to accept the challenge after their question is answered.

12. If the deadline expires and both people are tied, then the 1v1 must be called a draw.

I. Only exception is if it is 0-0, then the 1v1 goes on until a tiebreaking vote is cast or the season ends.

i. The 1v1 will not count if it is still 0-0 when the season ends.

ii. Both participants can participate in an extra 1v1 if overtime is happening.

13. Cards may not be fixed once voting has begun.

I. By fixed, this means changing things already on the card. If a voter or the creator points out that something (ex. Attribute, Summoning requirements, ATK, and DEF) is missing completely, then it can be fixed and any vote that is based on this error will be null.

14. Switching out a card for another after submission (unless it didn't meet the condition, then use rule 13) is prohibited.

15. A Card C vote is permitted when a voter doesn't not believe that either card should be allowed to win.

I. Sufficient reason must be provided as to why neither card should receive a vote when a Card C vote is used.

II. If there are 3 Card C votes, then both participants receive a draw.

i. The current vote total doesn't matter in this scenario.

16. At the end of the regular season, the top 8 people will be invited to the postseason tournament.

I. If an invitation is not accepted by the deadline, that spot will be opened to the public.

17. Failure to submit a card by the submission deadline shall result in a loss, and the 1v1 in question shall be open for another opponent.

i. Submission deadlines can be extended once if both competitors agree for non-tournament 1v1s and if an extension request is sent for tournament 1v1s

18. Feel free to discuss these rules through PM with me, since I’m open to suggestions.

19. I have the right to change the rules as I see fit.

[/spoiler]

[VCR_CAT]

I should mention that my critiques are for the 1v1 tournaments exclusively and not the member-run personal 1v1's.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

I should mention that my critiques are for the 1v1 tournaments exclusively and not the member-run personal 1v1's.

Well, tournament 1v1s use the regular Leaderboard rules (at least mine), so best to revise now.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Just so we're clear, personal 1v1s (without the tag) will run as normal.

 

- Either the host or challenger can choose the theme.

- First member to get 3 votes or most by deadline wins; although with this in mind, let's try and prevent 1-vote wins and stuff.

- Prize is a rep (voters should receive one as well, for dedicating their time).

- Cards should have their creator info removed as to promote anonymity, but otherwise isn't required.

 

Otherwise, whatever's in that rules thread should still hold.

Some things need to be cleared up.

[VCR_CAT]

As I've stated, anonymity does almost nothing for the matches themselves, as if there's any clear bias/not-good-enough-reason in the vote they can just be refused anyways. Regardless, though, any and all rules that can result in a disqualification NEED to be listed in the rules section and NOT be unwritten; it's ridiculous that anything with such a steep penalty isn't made obvious for anyone that doesn't already know, meaning they pretty much have to find out the hard way.

[Nathanael D. Striker]

As I've stated, anonymity does almost nothing for the matches themselves, as if there's any clear bias/not-good-enough-reason in the vote they can just be refused anyways. Regardless, though, any and all rules that can result in a disqualification NEED to be listed in the rules section and NOT be unwritten; it's ridiculous that anything with such a steep penalty isn't made obvious for anyone that doesn't already know, meaning they pretty much have to find out the hard way.

Anonymity is one of those traditions of the section. I realize I was too harsh for expecting everyone to know tradition. u.u

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

You and I are from the older generation of YCM, Striker.

VCR and Nai are from the newer one.

 

But indeed, it has been customary to remove your names from the card; although there have likely been some cases in the distant past where we didn't (Striker and I probably remember those).

However, bear in mind that the standards we have now regarding votes more/less didn't exist.

 

If that happened, believe it switched to anonymity at some point later on.

[宇佐見 蓮子@C94]

Alright, I do wanna set some things straight here.

 

1. What exactly is the topic being discussed here?

2. Can we do something about those topics?

3. We talk "improvements", but, the only real long-lasting improvement that can be done to 1v1 is a difficult effort that simply put, cannot be achieved simply with a discussion thread.

 

With 1....

 

There's sort of two topics being discussed here. One is the debate whether or not anonymity matters, and the second is whether or not the rules are up to scratch. I have opinions on both of these and I'm not afraid to say it, nya. For the first, anonymity matters about as much as a wizard's earlobe in 1v1 and the statement that it has been customary is blatantly untrue. I've been in several leaderboard matches since early in its conception, and also in the first two tournaments and I regularly broke the so-called "unwritten anonymity rule" to no consequence. If you do for some reason decide to make anonymity mandatory (and trust me, it sooooooooo isn't), it should be written in the rules. However, this also brings me to the second point.

 

The rules are too complicated. Some of the written rules are just unnecessary fluff and isn't really as much as a rule as just "I can do X if I see fit". It can definitely be reworked and trimmed down to be concise and efficient. Also, it would be much better for the actual Leaderboard contest makers to have a freer reign of how they will settle disputes that arise. Obviously this wont apply to the tourneys Striker makes, but I do believe it will make the Leaderboard itself a bit less... Demanding. Especially considering 100% of 1v1 is Leaderboard anyway so the statement of "Not all contests have to be leaderboard" is a moot point. All 1v1 contests are clearly Leaderboard. Therefore, having 1 person have absolute say over what goes on is a bad idea.

 

Anyway, moving on from those. Let's try to stick to 1 topic at a time with this thread. Nothing will get settled if it's all quarreling and such.

 

2. Right, what can we do to make 1v1 better? Make the rules not a clusterfuck of a mess, make Leaderboard be less strict, and what else? Honestly, Leaderboard is looking not too bad right now. But of course, I don't know what actually goes on in the section that well. Maybe perhaps someone can bring me to light with what the issues are so I can fix them? I might have some outs for what's wrong...

 

3. Alright, this is less of an argument and more of a point I'm trying to make. The one persistent, and biggest, problem with 1v1 is the absurdly bad quality of votes at times. Enough where can I say "most of the time". However, this is not something that can be addressed easily, as all voters have differing skills and knowledge about the game. There is no real clear-cut way to provide a litmus test to make sure everyone is on the same level. Votes will continue to be shit if the members voting in it are still bad at the game. Nothing can really be done to change that. Any "Judging Exam" or whatever is incredibly pointless, and is in fact a chore more than anything if it was mandatory. All it has done in the past is murder activity completely.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Just as a reminder, the Judging Exam only applies for THIS section (General Contests for Yugioh).

1v1s are not bound by it.

 

The concept of Other TCG exams was considered, but given that myself or .Saber didn't play other games besides YGO (at least not ones that are popular); it got dropped.

 

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However, I am considering dropping the Judging Exam and seeing if that'll do anything to make the section better. If there are any bad contests that disregard the rules, we can just end them on our own.

 

Recall that the exam is indeed optional (as opposed to the earlier one Aix had made earlier); if you want to take it, then that's fine. Otherwise, you don't have to.

Most you get out of it is basically a new usergroup + commission points for hosting/judging.

 

Frankly, exams are rather slow lately.

 

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I won't speak more on the Leaderboard since I wasn't around when it was conceived.

Regular 1v1s probably had anonymity, but I'm not going to check all the way back from 2010 to confirm this.

 

Most of 1v1s is basically Leaderboard, yes, however you should keep in mind there are some regular ones here and there.

 

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For reference, topic here is how to improve 1v1s (from what I get out of the main post).