Futureproofing Design

[Trebuchet MS]

 

Though the video uses Hearthstone to illustrate, I'm sure we can draw up similar examples from Yugioh, or take its pointers when designing our own cards. Not like we actually flash back to our old cards and see how they have aged very often, but still.

[.Rai]

Shame they didn't bring up MtG since they speak MtG's praises quite a lot. For a full in-depth case study, MtG developed most of the 'futureproofing' tricks for the genre. Admittedly, MtG's style of futureproofing is much more different due to rotating formats. Hearthstone develops in a way slightly more akin to YGO.

 

YGO's been an absolute wreck at this historically though.

[Sleepy]

Huh I understand the basic concept of the video, but the golem solution he suggested, if I were to translate it to Yugioh it'd sound something along the lines of:
Make 2 filler pack ones for each worthwhile target you create in future expansions. It's not like you are still increasing the amount of targets to choose from when deck-building.

It probably could have been worded better huh?

[.Rai]

Huh I understand the basic concept of the video, but the golem solution he suggested, if I were to translate it to Yugioh it'd sound something along the lines of:

Make 2 filler pack ones for each worthwhile target you create in future expansions. It's not like you are still increasing the amount of targets to choose from when deck-building.

It probably could have been worded better huh?

That's not what was even suggested at all. That's a solution very specific to that one card. Totemic Tuskarr is what I'd call volatile design - design with the potential to affect the state of design and/or development of the game. Volatile design can be for a multitude of reasons. Here, it's simply because it's balanced based on an approximate probability. That probability can be easily changed, and hence put out of balance: hence why the solution is to carefully maintain that probability.

 

There's basically no analogue to this in YGO (unless a more experienced YGO player than I wants to poke in). Futureproofing is a book of tricks. They merely demonstrated one or two.

 

Edit: I think, even more so, with this case, some tricks are clearly game-specific. Hearthstone allows for RNG elements since it's an electronic TCG. This is a cardgame where part of their design philosophy has meant that the /entire/ cardpool matters, not just your deck. Not necessarily better or worse, but a different style of play, and different tricks that come with it.

[Azuh]

 

When it comes to todays game, we look at nothing more than Spellbook of Judgment (or Dragon Rulers). Sometimes, when you're too careful with creating future sets, it gives nothing to the current game base. If they put 1 or 2 broken cards in a set, then the set sells.

[Sleepy]

That's not what was even suggested at all. That's a solution very specific to that one card. Totemic Tuskarr is what I'd call volatile design - design with the potential to affect the state of design and/or development of the game. Volatile design can be for a multitude of reasons. Here, it's simply because it's balanced based on an approximate probability. That probability can be easily changed, and hence put out of balance: hence why the solution is to carefully maintain that probability.

 

There's basically no analogue to this in YGO (unless a more experienced YGO player than I wants to poke in). Futureproofing is a book of tricks. They merely demonstrated one or two.

 

Edit: I think, even more so, with this case, some tricks are clearly game-specific. Hearthstone allows for RNG elements since it's an electronic TCG. This is a cardgame where part of their design philosophy has meant that the /entire/ cardpool matters, not just your deck. Not necessarily better or worse, but a different style of play, and different tricks that come with it.

 

The solution in that specific case is what is confusing to me.

Unless heartstone makes players get those Golems in that forced ratio at the time of deck-building, much like how in Splatoon all weapons are in fixed "sets" (I know, totally different kind of game), or unless they run a rotating format and only keeps the same number of Golems in the legal card pool at the controlled ratio.

Otherwise in Yugioh, a card with (let's say) 4 good targets and 8 weak ones, giving it another 2 good ones and 4 weak ones in a future expansion would normally mean "we have 6 good ones".

When I said "filler" up there it was just to oversimplify the comment, but assuming the weak targets are also still good in their own merit, you are still allowed to a bigger amount of targets per expansion and in any game with customization doesn't really sound like a solution that'd keep things as they are. Soon, be it "good weak" or "good strong" targets, the card is bound to wind up with "all good" targets eventually if they keep making targets for it.

 

Once again, just confused by that as a solution for balance...

The concept of "control your future design with key potential future threat cards in close watch" I got it.... it is the specific example that I have issues translating into Yugioh, and you did just say it doesn't really have a real analogue for Yugioh.

 

I guess you answer this in your "edit" part of the post, but I still have trouble picturing it completely. I should probably dig in some info about heartstone. I have no idea how it is played, especially because I've heard someone that made an IRL version of it found out there's a ton of little changes to the game-state over there that are very tedious to work out IRL but that flow very well on the digital version, and that last part of your comment makes me think that RPGing affects/restricts deck-building or at least the overall cardpool in some way. First thing that comes to mind is colors restricting usage of cards in MTG, or archetypes in Yugioh, but maybe it is something more than that?

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

It isn't in deck building, sleepy. It is like, "Get a random HERO" except none of the HEROs are in your deck. You could get, like, Voltic or something, rather than Tempest. It uses all of the totems in the card pool, rather then deck. This is one of the things that can be done in virtual card games that really isn't possible for physical TCGs.

[Blake]

 

When it comes to todays game, we look at nothing more than Spellbook of Judgment (or Dragon Rulers). Sometimes, when you're too careful with creating future sets, it gives nothing to the current game base. If they put 1 or 2 broken cards in a set, then the set sells.

Game is a lot more tame than back then, though, at least TCG side.

 

Only really broken stuff released lately is, like, Denko, Luster, and Wavering. Nothing to that degree.

[.Rai]

It isn't in deck building, sleepy. It is like, "Get a random HERO" except none of the HEROs are in your deck. You could get, like, Voltic or something, rather than Tempest. It uses all of the totems in the card pool, rather then deck. This is one of the things that can be done in virtual card games that really isn't possible for physical TCGs.

Yup! Giga explains it much simpler than I do. An effect like "Special Summon a random HERO from the entirety of YGO" is not doable in YGO. They love to use that style of design in Hearthstone however, so suddenly, you have to design not only with a 30-card deck in mind, but also the fact that your player may be affected by cards that aren't even in their deck! It's unique to virtual TCGs, so YGO doesn't have this issue.