Cincinnati Zoo Kills Gorilla to Protect Child Who Fell in Enclosure

[Delibirb]

Well if literally one person disagrees, which they do, it can't be all. Is what I'm saying.

I didn't say we all do agree, I said we all have to agree. As in at some point. Preferably soon.

[T. Sankara]

No. We weren't saying that at all. We were saying to stop championing his opinion as fact. Because if you do, we can argue whether or not it's right or wrong. If you re-read the thread, then until halfway down page 2 he does nothing but say they should lose the child. Then he gets testy when people say he might be looking at the situation from a bias perspective.

 

The fact that you are trying to are somehow trying to shame us for this is more pathetic than how riled up we, or at least I, got.

 

Notice how once he provided facts and the reasoning behind his opinion we were able to actually discuss it.

 

Ain't nobody trying to shame you.  Shut your ass up.  You didn't provide facts until after you decided what was right and what was wrong.  Don't get self righteous with me.  You wanna talk about getting testy?  How bout the fact that you and the rest were rilin on one person because you didn't like the scenarios he provided?  That's testy my jabroni.  You don't wanna get called out on your bullshit, then don't talk bullshit.

 

Reading through the fourth page, now it's like Winter's the one being witch-hunted tbh.

 

At the end of the day I'm still bothered that something like this is enough to warrant an investigation into the family but if there's enough people demanding it there's not much else I can say. An investigation attempt is not the worst thing ever.

 

And for the value of the gorilla. Do you value preservation of another species' continued existence over saving one of our own? Many, probably almost all would pick the latter. Is there some other value the gorilla's life had besides being an endangered species?

 

It funking ain't.  It's just a bunch of people scared that the child was almost purposefully forgotten and was allowed to enter the encampment.  The funking fact that the kid was in there means:

 

1.)  Mom lost him.  But losing a kid doesn't mean you're negligent.  Kids get lost in supermarkets, toy stores, and all kinda other stupid sheet all the time.  They're kids.  In some instances, it is solely on the parent.  But a lot of the funking time, that's not the case.

 

2.)  The encampment shoulda been more secure.  If it was really four or so barriers to get there, and this boy got in so easily, time for the funking zoo to do some funking work.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well they found the parents. And at the very least the father has a lengthy criminal record. That being said, this thread might get ugly really fast. No suprise the mom is justifying herself though

[Progenitor]

Ain't nobody trying to shame you.  Shut your ass up.  You didn't provide facts until after you decided what was right and what was wrong.  Don't get self righteous with me.  You wanna talk about getting testy?  How bout the fact that you and the rest were rilin on one person because you didn't like the scenarios he provided?  That's testy my jabroni.  You don't wanna get called out on your bullshit, then don't talk bullshit.

1) not like I haven't already apologized for my outburst or anything

2) you're right. I had no evidence. NOBODY had evidence. That was the point. But I wasn't making any claims. What I was asking for was how winter had the right to jump to such conclusions when HE didn't have evidence either. But he did. And he shared it. End of story.

3) we were all sitting pretty and happy, the shitstorm was over. Then all of a sudden you popped in at the end and tried to call me out? I'm fairly certain that's the textbook definition of "shaming"

 

Or whatever. Believe what you want. I'm not getting goaded into another pointless argument.

[Mutant Monster RAEG-HAPYP]

http://www.fox19.com/story/32094746/vigil-to-be-held-for-17-year-old-gorilla-shot-killed-at-cincinnati-zoo

 

 

Activists banned together in support of Harambe by creating a petition to pass 'Harambe's Law.'

 

The petition states the law would give legal consequences when an endangered animal is harmed or killed due to the negligence of visitors.

 

As of Monday morning, the petition had 30,049 supporters.

 

Well, this is interesting. What do you think?

[Progenitor]

That's fair. It depends on what that punishment is though.

TBH I'm surprised this wasn't already a law. You could very easily file it under a loose interpretation of vandalism (that's gonna trigger so many people but TECHNICALLY Ham WAS the Zoo's property, just sayin)

 

Yeah so long as the punishments are all within reason this should already be a thing

[vla1ne]

honestly, with the size of the fence, and the ease of entry, it was an accident waiting to happen, but what needs to be advocated in this instance is higher walls and better security, since common sense security is no longer cutting it. sure, it's sad that the gorilla died, but it's the first incident since the zoo was built, it's not an epidemic. it's an accident, and it's one that i assume the zoo was already working to fix.

[Aerion Brightflame]

[spoiler=Quote]

I am going to try to clear up a few things that have been weighing on me about Harambe and the Cinci Zoo since I read the news this afternoon. 

 

I have worked with Gorillas as a zookeeper while in my twenties (before children) and they are my favorite animal (out of dozens) that I have ever worked closely with. I am gonna go ahead and list a few facts, thoughts and opinions for those of you that aren't familiar with the species itself, or how a zoo operates in emergency situations.

Now Gorillas are considered 'gentle giants' at least when compared with their more aggressive cousins the chimpanzee, but a 400+ pound male in his prime is as strong as roughly 10 adult humans. What can you bench press? OK, now multiply that number by ten. An adult male silverback gorilla has one job, to protect his group. He does this by bluffing or intimidating anything that he feels threatened by.

Gorillas are considered a Class 1 mammal, the most dangerous class of mammals in the animal kingdom, again, merely due to their size and strength. They are grouped in with other apes, tigers, lions, bears, etc.
While working in an AZA accredited zoo with Apes, keepers DO NOT work in contact with them. Meaning they do NOT go in with these animals. There is always a welded mesh barrier between the animal and the humans.
In more recent decades, zoos have begun to redesign enclosures, removing all obvious caging and attempting to create a seamless view of the animals for the visitor to enjoy watching animals in a more natural looking habitat. *this is great until little children begin falling into exhibits* which of course can happen to anyone, especially in a crowded zoo-like setting.

I have watched this video over again, and with the silverback's posturing, and tight lips, it's pretty much the stuff of any keeper's nightmares, and I have had MANY while working with them. This job is not for the complacent. Gorillas are kind, curious, and sometimes silly, but they are also very large, very strong animals. I always brought my OCD to work with me. checking and rechecking locks to make sure the animals under my care and I remained separated before entering to clean.

I keep hearing that the Gorilla was trying to protect the boy. I do not find this to be true. Harambe reaches for the boys hands and arms, but only to position the child better for his own displaying purposes. 
Males do very elaborate displays when highly agitated, slamming and dragging things about. Typically they would drag large branches, barrels and heavy weighted balls around to make as much noise as possible. Not in an effort to hurt anyone or anything (usually) but just to intimidate. It was clear to me that he was reacting to the screams coming from the gathering crowd.

Harambe was most likely not going to separate himself from that child without seriously hurting him first (again due to mere size and strength, not malicious intent) Why didn't they use treats? well, they attempted to call them off exhibit (which animals hate), the females in the group came in, but Harambe did not. What better treat for a captive animal than a real live kid! 

 

They didn't use Tranquilizers for a few reasons, A. Harambe would've taken too long to become immobilized, and could have really injured the child in the process as the drugs used may not work quickly enough depending on the stress of the situation and the dose B. Harambe would've have drowned in the moat if immobilized in the water, and possibly fallen on the boy trapping him and drowning him as well. 

Many zoos have the protocol to call on their expertly trained dart team in the event of an animal escape or in the event that a human is trapped with a dangerous animal. They will evaluate the scene as quickly and as safely as possible, and will make the most informed decision as how they will handle the animal. 

I can't point fingers at anyone in this situation, but we need to really evaluate the safety of the animal enclosures from the visitor side. Not impeding that view is a tough one, but there should be no way that someone can find themselves inside of an animal's exhibit. 

I know one thing for sure, those keepers lost a beautiful, and I mean gorgeous silverback and friend. I feel their loss with them this week. As educators and conservators of endangered species, all we can do is shine a light on the beauty and majesty of these animals in hopes to spark a love and a need to keep them from vanishing from our planet. Child killers, they are not. It's unfortunate for the conservation of the species, and the loss of revenue a beautiful zoo such as Cinci will lose. tragedy all around.

 

 

 

So this was circulating on my FB page earlier today and I thought it was worth a read to just you know frame the scenario a little better from someone with actual experience handling gorilla's. 

 

I also dislike the idea of that petition because you know it'll be taken too far. Since cases like this will almost always be high publicity, negligence will be thrown around at them a little too loosely. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Not doing anything is negligence too

 

That law needs to be made

[Aerion Brightflame]

No I mean that any time this happens because it's publicised, as was the case for this one, there will be a vocal group who insist it's to do with negligence regardless of the evidence. Which means it won't matter if standards for negligence are met, people will get blamed wrongly just out a need to assign the blame to someone. There will have to be some kind of negligence at hand, it can't just be a freak accident. 

 

Especially because again, in public cases like this, they cannot get away with doing nothing when nothing actually needs doing. People will crucify them for it. 

[LordCowCowCowCowCowCowCowCow]

Public cases is one of the biggest flaws of the law system and it disgusts me sometimes more than the crimes being committed.

[Delibirb]

honestly, with the size of the fence, and the ease of entry, it was an accident waiting to happen, but what needs to be advocated in this instance is higher walls and better security, since common sense security is no longer cutting it. sure, it's sad that the gorilla died, but it's the first incident since the zoo was built, it's not an epidemic. it's an accident, and it's one that i assume the zoo was already working to fix.

The problem with making better walls is the isolation it creates. People whine enough, complaining zoos are more or less animal prison. Zoos try to make the animal enclosures as, well, enclosed as possible, without making the animals feel encroached upon, which could lead to depression. The low walls/fences are more or less a formality for kids and humans to not be idiots and go waltzing into an animal's territory, because no walls isn't an option. Negligence finds a way, but idiot-proofing is unrealistic for the majority of zoos' primary initiative: care of endangered or injured animals.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

The problem with making better walls is the isolation it creates. People whine enough, complaining zoos are more or less animal prison. Zoos try to make the animal enclosures as, well, enclosed as possible, without making the animals feel encroached upon, which could lead to depression. The low walls/fences are more or less a formality for kids and humans to not be idiots and go waltzing into an animal's territory, because no walls isn't an option. Negligence finds a way, but idiot-proofing is unrealistic for the majority of zoos' primary initiative: care of endangered or injured animals.

Two things.

 

1.) Zoos aren't for caring for injured and endangered animals. They are an entertainment outlet first, and a reserve second.

2.) Proper enclosures might look scary, but a dead gorilla is a hell of a lot worse. The exhibits look the way they do for the visitors, not the animals.

[Simping For Hina]

Frankly, the zoo did what it needed to do. The parents are idiots. Death threats are literally the worse. this entire thing is uninteresting, nothing is going to change most likely, and this is funking stupid.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well the dad straight up has multiple criminal offenses

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

Well the dad straight up has multiple criminal offenses

 

And this is related how? Just because someone has a record, it doesnt mean they're automaticly a negligent parent.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

And this is related how? Just because someone has a record, it doesnt mean they're automaticly a negligent parent.

Shrugs, if you think a kid being raised in a household where the mother thinks she's at no fault in this situation and the father was convicted of multiple crimes including violent ones, that's good for you.

 

Last I checked that kind of record would disturb most people

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

Shrugs, if you think a kid being raised in a household where the mother thinks she's at no fault in this situation and the father was convicted of multiple crimes including violent ones, that's good for you.

 

Last I checked that kind of record would disturb most people

 

And here we go with the opinion.

 

Just how do you know the dad's criminal past affected the home life?

For all we know his criminal history, and family life, are two different worlds that he's not mixing, and the fact that you're assuming he did just goes to show that you are looking for something to use as fodder to call them bad parents. You're not trying to prove your opinion, you're desperately clinging to whatever "evidence" you can find just because you cant accept that this might've just been, shocker, a freak accident, and not the parents being negligent.

 

(believe it or not, but a whole lot of people who break the law wont ever let it slip to the people close to them)

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

It's not an opinion lol. There's a reason the government doesn't always allow violent criminals to stay near their kids

 

I'm saying each nugget that comes out about this family makes them seem even more questionable. Be it the mother claiming she's at no fault, or the child repeatedly telling his mother about wanting to play with the gorilla or the back pocket test or now the dad's very spotty history.

 

There should be an investigation for the child's same and in respect of the gorilla that had to give its life for /maybe/ negligence.

 

Innocent until proven guilty does not exclude you from investigation

[vla1ne]

It's not an opinion lol. There's a reason the government doesn't always allow violent criminals to stay near their kids

 

I'm saying each nugget that comes out about this family makes them seem even more questionable. Be it the mother claiming she's at no fault, or the child repeatedly telling his mother about wanting to play with the gorilla or the back pocket test or now the dad's very spotty history.

 

There should be an investigation for the child's same and in respect of the gorilla that had to give its life for /maybe/ negligence.

 

Innocent until proven guilty does not exclude you from investigation

just to make sure i understand you position: they might or might not be blameless, but that is not the problem, the issue, as far as the parents go is that they were negligent, and this may be the first incident, but the incident itself, combined with the past of one parent, warrants at least a basic look into their history with said child correct? that's basically what you've been saying (albeit more aggressively) as far as i've read.

 

If that's the case, then i see no reason for anybody here to be disagreeing. the fathers' past might turn out to be nothing, and both parents may or may not have been negligent before this incident, but the damage caused here at least warrants a basic search.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

just to make sure i understand you position: they might or might not be blameless, but that is not the problem, the issue, as far as the parents go is that they were negligent, and this may be the first incident, but the incident itself, combined with the past of one parent, warrants at least a basic look into their history with said child correct? that's basically what you've been saying (albeit more aggressively) as far as i've read.

 

If that's the case, then i see no reason for anybody here to be disagreeing. the fathers' past might turn out to be nothing, and both parents may or may not have been negligent before this incident, but the damage caused here at least warrants a basic search.

That's it. If nothing is found, we can just mourn the gorilla. If there are other incidents or concerns, I don't want that gorilla to die in vain

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/us/police-investigating-shooting-of-gorilla-at-cincinnati-zoo.amp.html?client=safari#

[Delibirb]

Two things.

 

1.) Zoos aren't for caring for injured and endangered animals. They are an entertainment outlet first, and a reserve second.

2.) Proper enclosures might look scary, but a dead gorilla is a hell of a lot worse. The exhibits look the way they do for the visitors, not the animals.

1. Cincinnati Zoo:

Our Mission:

Creating Adventure, Conveying Knowledge, Conserving Nature, Serving Community

 

Phoenix Zoo:

 

Many many zoos indeed ARE first and foremost a conservation reserve. The entertainment outlet exists in large part to get money for research and care, and as a means to not only justify their primary goal to the general public, but to educate them about it and why it is important.

 

2. The exhibits look the way they do for both parties. A dead gorilla is very sad, but I'd argue a depressed gorilla that refuses to eat or exercise would be far more emotionally painful. Obviously some improvements could be made, but it is important to be careful that we aren't doing so at the expense of the animals' emotional health. Visitors like the way the exhibits look because we get to see how the animal behaves in a place they are comfortable and peaceful.

[Shalltear Bloodfallen]

A interesting read, atleast if you ask me

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/01/opinions/harambe-gorilla-shooting-coates/index.html?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial

[T. Sankara]

A interesting read, atleast if you ask me

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/06/01/opinions/harambe-gorilla-shooting-coates/index.html?iid=ob_lockedrail_topeditorial

 

I get why you posted it, but CNN proceeds to drag this story (as sad and as hurtful as it is) back to BLM (albeit not on purpose) and the Tamir Rice case (which is heavily racially involved).  So it's toeing the line.  For those who read it, don't take too much out of context.  Even if it is CNN LOL.

 

RIP Tamir.

[vla1ne]

1. Cincinnati Zoo:

Our Mission:

Creating Adventure, Conveying Knowledge, Conserving Nature, Serving Community

 

Phoenix Zoo:

 

Many many zoos indeed ARE first and foremost a conservation reserve. The entertainment outlet exists in large part to get money for research and care, and as a means to not only justify their primary goal to the general public, but to educate them about it and why it is important.

 

2. The exhibits look the way they do for both parties. A dead gorilla is very sad, but I'd argue a depressed gorilla that refuses to eat or exercise would be far more emotionally painful. Obviously some improvements could be made, but it is important to be careful that we aren't doing so at the expense of the animals' emotional health. Visitors like the way the exhibits look because we get to see how the animal behaves in a place they are comfortable and peaceful.

 

easy, 5-10 Foot Plexiglas. wall just after the regular little wire blockade. you can still see the animals, and children can no longer volunteer for Darwin awards. solves both issues. it might be a bit expensive to do for all exhibits, but i'd say avoiding lawsuits down the line would be worth it.