Herald of Perfection

[werewolfjedi]

and your are not allowed to play decks? then you don't understand the point of a control deck. it's meant to stop combos, which is what a majorty of decks do in this game, so if you make a good control deck, you can stop most anything other meta style decks do. he fact that pure agro doesn't really exist in this game, is one of the issues, everything is combo into agro.otk. that is exactly what a control deck works to stop from allowing to happen.

so your statement is pointless on the grounds that control decks all do that, or don't exist in this game.

[Sleepy]

how is control bad for the game?

 

oh wow, I played a card that can't kill you, if you play true agro and don't rely on combos to bring out your giant creatures. this card can't win a game without help, and on top of that it's not super ultra consistent. it is stupidly easy to play around this card, if you actually think, instead of just paying derp derp combos all day long.

 

I have literally beaten this card over the course of 2 turns, doing nothing but summon a level 4. summon a second level 4, second one is a tuner. make red dragon archfiend. and ran it over. its so freaking easy it's not even funny. the issue is everyone is so effect crazy that anything that stops them repeatedly is "bad".

learn to adapt, or just accept that control beats combo, it's how these games work.

 

the very fact that a player would assume control is bad for this game, is what is wrong with this game.

Though I've personally had tried that tactic, and among other plays they'll sometimes:

-Bring out Kristya rather fast and I won't be able to make that Synchro/Xyz.

-I'd be unable to get that second monster without help from effects, and the ones I could Summon are not sizable enough to last for that second monster, and my opponent sure won't let me build that up.

-My opponent has Honest and/or Gachi and I can't get over them.

-Beckoning Light slaps me with new effect negation bullets and a recycled Honest.

-Often will have Thetys and not only draw easily into more bullets, but is also 2400 ATK which no Normal Summon gets over, or more if you have Honest/Gachi around.

 

Not saying this happens all the time, but it's not actually all that uncommon. Maybe you were just lucky. I once beat an Assault Mode deck by forcing it to respond to a Creature Swap + Treeborn, then Rekindled my way to victory, and had previously somehow managed to make Red Dragon to crash against the first one before Synchro Stardust turned into another one. Will I actually draw those perfect plays often? heck no.

 

There's another "control" deck that was a lot of fun. Six Sams would bring out spam Barkion, Beast, and Shock Master + Shi-En, also setting a  few Traps to make sure everything would be a-ok. Fun little control, right? Of course Gateway was the worst part there, so this is not exactly pointing at the others... Except Shi En('s protection effect) and Shock Master.... those can burn.

Naturias are also locks, buuuut IDK.

[The Warden]

Y'know, if you had extracted your head from your anus some time earlier you would understand what he meant. Herald is one of the few "You can't play this game anymore" cards; other well known friends are Oppression and his baby brother Vanity's Emptiness, plus other cards I can't remember right now.

 

See, you can't build a control deck perfectly, because they're still only cards. You need to draw and combo them. In Herald's case, the only control EVER being done is summoning him, and if you're feeling saucy you'll summon Krystia as well. Herald has the benefit of multi-chainability, so outside of Divine Wrathing him he will negate the cards you used in a chain because he can.

 

See, the dichotomy between "Control" and "You-Can't-Play-This-Game-Anymore" is that in the case of control, it is powerful when it gets all its combos going. In the case of YCPTGA, it'll either go hard, or go home. There is 0 middle ground when you use Perfect Herald. You will either sack right from the start with a first turn PH and maybe Krystia, and then proceed to not let your opponent do anything. That is what YCPTGA is all about: Sacking a win in the most unreasonable and unfair way possible that you simply cannot counter or recover from. THAT is why no one likes PH, because, for the most part, it doesn't earn its victory; but it will still sack one anyways.

 

Plus all that stuff Sleepy said.

[Sleepy]

Nowadays, when I see this card I can't help but think about Chris since he strongly defended this card's way of playing.

 

 

 

 

Arguably enough, there are different ways of going about in this game preferred by each individual, and on paper the concept of "I stop everything you do with this deck theme or you find the tiniest opening and break my whole strategy apart from that" would be "fair" and "different". Through those glasses, the opposing opinions would come out as "butthurt" more than anything else, and the argument would just get stronger by the fact this deck is nowhere in the radar of important events.

 

There's also the "it responds to your opponent's plays. There's no getting more interactive than that".

 

I still think that a game where going back and forth cannot happen, that you have to stop your opponent completely and never allow them to do anything throughout the entire Duel/Match, otherwise you'll lose your important pieces and pretty much auto-lose with your last kicks of incomplete combos, if you even draw into those complete combos to begin with, is a pretty bad thing that transcends from "it's the way I like playing" to "WTF were you thinking?". To me at least, it's not "fun".

 

The only way you can really make them run-out of bullets is when they don't have "+Fairies in hand" effects (IE Tethys, Underdog, Dark Factory, etc) AND your hand consists on just cards that can all be used to make your good plays independently. 1-card Synchros, mass destruction, etc. Everything immediately activable and good enough to force your opponent into bait. Opponents are often not dumb and will know when they can let something go through without consequences, and you are more likely to run out of useful cards first than they are from running out of Fairies most of the time.

[werewolfjedi]

Nowadays, when I see this card I can't help but think about Chris since he strongly defended this card's way of playing.

 

 

 

 

Arguably enough, there are different ways of going about in this game preferred by each individual, and on paper the concept of "I stop everything you do with this deck theme or you find the tiniest opening and break my whole strategy apart from that" would be "fair" and "different". Through those glasses, the opposing opinions would come out as "butthurt" more than anything else, and the argument would just get stronger by the fact this deck is nowhere in the radar of important events.

 

There's also the "it responds to your opponent's plays. There's no getting more interactive than that".

 

I still think that a game where going back and forth cannot happen, that you have to stop your opponent completely and never allow them to do anything throughout the entire Duel/Match, otherwise you'll lose your important pieces and pretty much auto-lose with your last kicks of incomplete combos, if you even draw into those complete combos to begin with, is a pretty bad thing that transcends from "it's the way I like playing" to "WTF were you thinking?". To me at least, it's not "fun".

 

The only way you can really make them run-out of bullets is when they don't have "+Fairies in hand" effects (IE Tethys, Underdog, Dark Factory, etc) AND your hand consists on just cards that can all be used to make your good plays independently. 1-card Synchros, mass destruction, etc. Everything immediately activable and good enough to force your opponent into bait. Opponents are often not dumb and will know when they can let something go through without consequences, and you are more likely to run out of useful cards first than they are from running out of Fairies most of the time.

so the problem is that it's not fun?

it's not fun for me to watch someone take a 15 min turn doing a hieratic otk, does that mean I can bitch about that and say it should be banned too? because that seems to be the way this conversation is going, so I''m done trying. people don't like control in this game. okay then.

and the six sam lockdown control stuff is just as bad when they can do 2 or even 3 of those monsters on the opening turn and make it impossible for me to do anything, I might as well just leave the table during those games. that's not little control, that's the exact same league as perfect herald. a sacky turn 1 that makes an impossible to get over field.

[Sleepy]

so the problem is that it's not fun?

it's not fun for me to watch someone take a 15 min turn doing a hieratic otk, does that mean I can b**** about that and say it should be banned too? because that seems to be the way this conversation is going, so I''m done trying. people don't like control in this game. okay then.

and the six sam lockdown control stuff is just as bad when they can do 2 or even 3 of those monsters on the opening turn and make it impossible for me to do anything, I might as well just leave the table during those games. that's not little control, that's the exact same league as perfect herald. a sacky turn 1 that makes an impossible to get over field.

Read again. Read carefully at what you are replying to. See all of those "to me", "in my opinion", and "I don't like" instances I make? Does it sound like I'm saying "it should be banned"? Am I not making it clear enough that my reasons are not following the "what I say is best and goes" formula?

 

I'm just saying the card is from personal experience a "crush your opponent with no chance of letting anything through" or a "I have not enough so my opponent will win before I can ever do something meaningful", and one-sided Duels suck. This is not just potentially one-sided because of possible differences in power from the decks, but it's downright designed to "shut down your opponent or GTFO". Heck I'm even admitting my personal experience is not exactly a dozen+ Duels against this with all the play-test possible towards it. Hence why I say things like "from personal experience".

 

Besides, if that's what control is, control is an awful style not much better than FTKs you could through out there. It might as well be an FTK if it's decided you won't be playing your deck at all during the next 5+ of your turns the duel might last.

 

If it takes 15 minutes and is an OTK, it's called solitaire and depending on how consistent it is it's worth bitching about regardless of banlist positions.

[Suibon]

It utilizes the Djinn for the ritual summon to also lock off Special Summons for your opponent only. Meaning, you don't get to use that precious RDA to run it over.

 

Which still leaves you with a 1800 ATK Ritual -- using Djinn (Disenchanter? Prognosticator? Temtempo? Muzurhythm? can't recall presently, and the Wikia's taking its sweet time to load) only prevents the opponent from using his bosses, but it doesn't give you extra beef.

 

More importantly, the main field generally also consists of Christia.

 

Well, there's the beef -- but why are we assuming that Kristya's hugeness isn't somehow at fault here?

 

 

And don't forget about Honest...

 

Honest is broken. Fact.

[Suibon]

Y'know, if you had extracted your head from your anus some time earlier you would understand what he meant. Herald is one of the few "You can't play this game anymore" cards; other well known friends are Oppression and his baby brother Vanity's Emptiness, plus other cards I can't remember right now.

 

Except that paying 800 LP to use a good effect has always been a laughable 'cost' to restrain said effect -- YGO is littered with examples, from Imperial Order to Cyber-Stein, of cards whose 'costs' did not stop or even temper abuse.

 

In contrast, you lose in-hand resources for each use of Herald of Perfection's effect -- which, in conjunction with Herald being a near-insurmountable wall but barely adequate beatstick and its subsequent reliance on big throbbing beatsticks (and no, Honest stat boosts don't count) to run over any threat to it staying on the field, should be enough to keep it away from the banlist.

[vla1ne]

Except that paying 800 LP to use a good effect has always been a laughable 'cost' to restrain said effect -- YGO is littered with examples, from Imperial Order to Cyber-Stein, of cards whose 'costs' did not stop or even temper abuse.

In contrast, you lose in-hand resources for each use of Herald of Perfection's effect -- which, in conjunction with Herald being a near-insurmountable wall but barely adequate beatstick and its subsequent reliance on big throbbing beatsticks (and no, Honest stat boosts don't count) to run over any threat to it staying on the field, should be enough to keep it away from the banlist.

Discarding a card to negate almost any effect is actually a fairly low cost when the card you drop can be easily recycled. Perfection plays mindgames with your opponent, and going all in from the start is usually the only way to kill it off. If you can't do it then, then usually the game only gets worse for you as it goes on to accumulate more hand recources. Honest and Krystia might help in the offensive portion, but they aren't the ones to blame for the complete negation of effects.

I don't think it should be banned, but limiting it the same way krystia was shouldn't be out of the question if it ever begins picking up speed via new fairy/ ritual support. it's very far over the line as far as design goes, the low ATK means nothing since in defense mode it can still shut down entire decks. The only thing even remotely holding it back from being completely broken is the fact that it's a ritual monster instead of a Effect/Synchro/Xyz/Fusion.

[Suibon]

Discarding a card to negate almost any effect is actually a fairly low cost when the card you drop can be easily recycled. Perfection plays mindgames with your opponent, and going all in from the start is usually the only way to kill it off. If you can't do it then, then usually the game only gets worse for you as it goes on to accumulate more hand recources. Honest and Krystia might help in the offensive portion, but they aren't the ones to blame for the complete negation of effects.

 

But how would you win without attacking? If the Herald user doesn't have a big throbbing beatstick to beat face with, what would stop the opponent from simply accumulating his resources till he is sure he can exhaust the Herald user's hand in one turn?

 

the low ATK means nothing since in defense mode it can still shut down entire decks.

 

If the opponent can still summon and set monsters that Herald can't run over by battle, then you really haven't shut down everything, have you?

[vla1ne]

But how would you win without attacking? If the Herald user doesn't have a big throbbing beatstick to beat face with, what would stop the opponent from simply accumulating his resources till he is sure he can exhaust the Herald user's hand in one turn?

 

If the opponent can still summon and set monsters that Herald can't run over by battle, then you really haven't shut down everything, have you?

Yeah, you might need something with a high ATK to win via lifepoint damage, but summoning herald with something like a Djinn, or having something like a mirror force/starlight road down to protect him is more than enough protection until you draw into said beater(s). also, while you're stocking up on resources, what makes you think the herald user isn't, or cant do the same thing? Most of the time, you'd need to use 2-3 cards in a combo to threaten herald of perfection, but herald would only need 1 fairy in hand to shut that combo down. his defence beats out most monster ATK's and his effect is more than enough to kill off any effect based combos you might happen to be planning. I get that his ATK makes him a neutral threat, but you can't just ignore the fact that starting with him +2 fairies in hand and an advanced ritual art or Manju+Djinn is often enough to win you the game. throwing in krystia is just icing on the overly frosted orb monster.


Like I said before though, even though his effect is broken beyond repair, herald isn't currently enough of a threat due to not having enough ritual support cards to boost consistency. nothing else about him matters in relation to his design. But the day that changes, herald had better see the list.

[Blake]

Holy hell would you all shut the fuck up

Herald is bad for the game. It's not a control card, it's a lockdown card. It's not necessarily harming the gamestate at any given moment, but that doesn't mean a card that creates a completely stagnant gamestate is good for the game. It doesn't control the gamestate, it outright ends it.

Jedi, shut the hell up. The fact you tried to use Hieratic OTK as a justification for this is dumb because any halfwit knows that deck is bad design on bad design on bad design. It's like saying "Well Heavy Storm might not be fair, but neither is Monster Reborn, so nyeh".

And then you made a fucking stupid point about Bujin. Bujins were a control deck that is now turbo and OTK with Hirume. They were never comparable to Herald because they weren't a "1-card" gamestate freezer, and being able to kill Herald over 2 turns or w/e doesn't make it any more fair, it just shows that if they have resourced you'll be fucked.

And how does not having a beatstick make Herald fair, at Suibon? First off, have you read Krystia? And then, even without OTKing , if you're compiling resources then Herald likely is, too, and they also have cards like Krystia and Dark Factory to replenish their resources, while you likely have no way to perform actions like those because of Herald. It may be a grind game, but Herald has a good chance with said grind game if it doesn't draw it's shitty vanillas early.

Slinky, no one uses Djinns in herald. And anyone that snapped at Dog King for telling Dog King to not be snappy to slinky should shut up, considering Slinky was acting high and mighty for no damn good reason.

Just thank God herald needs those shitty vanillas.

The multiple-chain ability thing is dumb, too.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

Using Djinns in a Herald Deck sounds incredibly inconsistent, especially since you need to find some way of milling those cards first before you can get their effects off.

 

 

If the opponent can still summon and set monsters that Herald can't run over by battle, then you really haven't shut down everything, have you?

 

This is why you play backrow protection. You know, stuff like Trap Hole. Trust me, it's a good card!

[Maeriberii Haan]

I wonder why does control deck and lockdown decks became synonymous all of the sudden...

Control means forcing your opponent to play the game in your intended way, or limiting their options slowly but surely until they ran out of it.

Lockdown is just ''lolnope you can do that fox'' deal.

There's a line between the two.

Also, lockdown cards is not really that bad, assuming that it can still feasibly be outplayed in your average deck (LaDD), have an inherent weakness (Bambooshoot), or just being damn hard to set-up (Za World, Extrio).

Herald falls on neither of the three, as it's multiple chainability means its harder to outplay it, the card itself has little to none noticeable flaw (the only major flaw is you must dedicate your deck to it, which is another factor entirely), and is piss-easy to set up depending on your hand.

[Slinky]

 

Which still leaves you with a 1800 ATK Ritual -- using Djinn (Disenchanter? Prognosticator? Temtempo? Muzurhythm? can't recall presently, and the Wikia's taking its sweet time to load) only prevents the opponent from using his bosses, but it doesn't give you extra beef.

 

By the "Djinn" I meant the level 3 Fiend Djinn

 

 

It doesnt need to be in the grave, it helps. But so long as it was used in the ritual summon, it goes off.

 

On top of that, Herald having 1800 ATK doesn't matter, because it will usually be in defense position, where it is a wall of 2800.

[Wildflame]

I love Fairy, I absolutely love Ritual, but for some reason I've never been able to really get into this guy. The deck is so..., linear.

 

Without the multi-chainability (something that shouldn't exist), this would be more fair.

[Catterjune]

Herald of Perfection is nothing without Kristya.

It also just about always needs to run a lot of godawful vanillas to do anything.

Yeah, when it goes off well it's fucking awful to duel against. It just doesn't always "go off well".

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Yeah, when it goes off well it's f***ing awful to duel against. It just doesn't always "go off well".

You see, I feel that can be said for 90% of the entire game, but that's just what Yugioh is.

But in terms of Herald? Yes. My first duel against it I crushed it before anything happened, but I was interested and asked the guy for a rematch so I could maybe see how it worked. And then it worked. XD

[Sleepy]

You see, I feel that can be said for 90% of the entire game, but that's just what Yugioh is.

But in terms of Herald? Yes. My first duel against it I crushed it before anything happened, but I was interested and asked the guy for a rematch so I could maybe see how it worked. And then it worked. XD

Yeah, but Herald is a bit more extreme than your average deck in that regard. If it doesn't go off well, you can get up to full hands of dead cards and know it can even get pointless to play. Then when it goes right, there is not much to do for the opponent.

Usually decks have some "I can still use this" to almost any card combination, especially competitive decks.

 

That's my personal issue with the card. It's not so much "It'll destroy the game" as much as it's very black or white. I never really see in-betweens (which must exist, of course). I guess the term would be "sacky" like with LS at some point?...

[Ultravires]

Herald rarely goes off and even if it does they're still behind until they rip a Factory, and they have no win condition until they rip Kristya. Sacky first turns aside the deck is absolute trash and loses to siding game 2 and 3.