[Discussion] Between TCG/OCG Format and "DN Format"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Rulers are deadish aside from a few that pop up every now and then, but they certainly aren't the norm anymore

TG Madolche isn't relevant, like.. at all.

Shaddolls are a fair point

what tuner are you using in Necloth to summon this thing? Because having it as level 9 fodder for Kaleido doesn't count as uh.. "using" it.

 

Its worded exactly like the original trish yet has an opposite ruling. That isn't a nerf, that's a contradiction that Konami is known for.

Also, you're implying having 1 in each area is hard. It's not.

 

EDIT: You called Bulb bad design due to being always live. OCG still has Solemn Judgment. Always live, and is generally significantly more potent than Bulb ever will be due to being a cockblocker to every single relevant card in the game whereas Bulb just advances a play.

I was referring to it's use over the time of its unban, BUT If we are talking atm

 

Ruler-Fine

T.G. Madolchey-Died after Offering got banned

Necloth run veiler or diva, but I was mostly counting the summon Brio+lv3 play with Mirror so I'll concede that one to you.

 

Solemn J is used to counter balance Heavy...and a mill 1 is VASTLY different than a half your LP..

[Slinky]

You missed the point on Judgment.

 

Yes they are different, my point was, Solemn is literally a "Stop anything you want at anytime, Go." Basically, a get out of jail free card (except it not being "free"). Whereas Bulb just takes a play and gives it Synchro options. 

 

Their applications are different, and you can't compare on application. You have to weigh based on impact. SJs impact is severely larger than Glow-Up due to its extreme versatility in blocking your opponent. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

You missed the point on Judgment.

 

Yes they are different, my point was, Solemn is literally a "Stop anything you want at anytime, Go." Basically, a get out of jail free card (except it not being "free"). Whereas Bulb just takes a play and gives it Synchro options. 

 

Their applications are different, and you can't compare on application. You have to weigh based on impact. SJs impact is severely larger than Glow-Up due to its extreme versatility in blocking your opponent. 

Higher Cost Higher Benefit? Also you would have to see what Bulb would do in OCG before you careless say it doesn't do much

 

1 Tuner + 2 or more non-Tuner monsters

When this card is Synchro Summoned, you can activate this effect to remove from play up to one card each from your opponent's hand, field and Graveyard. (The card in the hand is chosen at random.)

 

You can Ritual Summon this card with any "Nekroz" Ritual Spell Card. Must be Ritual Summoned by using monsters other than Level 9 monsters, and cannot be Special Summoned by other ways. During either player's turn, when a "Nekroz" monster(s) you control is targeted by a card or effect: You can discard this card; negate the activation. When this card is Ritual Summoned: You can banish 1 card from your opponent's side of the field, hand (at random) and Graveyard. You can only use each effect of "The Nekroz Armor of Trishula" once per turn.

 

The Up To makes the difference 

[Sleepy]

[spoiler=I'm putting your post inside a spoiler to tidy my reply up here]

Raigeki is "bad" since BA floats and Qliphorts Pseudo float, but it turns into a OTK button cause it doesn't ruin setup

 

It cleaned up the two best decks of OCG July format meta...it's not gonna ban s*** that makes TCG players, who don't really impact the OCG metagame, feel sad

 

Rampant? I'm guessing you are a person that deems Gateway of the Six rampant even tho the card is dusty play wise in OCG...nothing is too powerful there atm, so no nothing is rampant in the slightest

 

Trish and Shockmaster are not a OTK this turn button in the slightest. Trishula became needed as a dedicated form of removal can can bypass certain cards and decks that layer protection on a single card and a way to boost syncs. Shockmaster is not bad OCG side for a reason that you yourself noted, we have 3 TT, extrapolate this, we have 3 compuls and a lot of other cards, unlike the TCG, all 3 colors are very very potent in OCG and thus shock often turns into a - (post star seraph) and only decks that can constantly generate +1's like DDT can use it (and OCG has noted and will demolish DDT soon)

 

And the fact that you think Shock is relevant outside of one deck that is significantly less powerful post SECE discredits you. Also OCG cares more about the players since they 1) Reprint cards that people want 2) Send officials to everything down to locals to watch games 3) Model the banlist of what people like

 

Like TCG with Monster Reborn and Soul Charge, OCG doesn't do that s***

 

I think TCG does it's job, they apply the banhammer to everything and yes that solves matters pretty easily. I think cards like Primal Seed are the only stupid moves TCG makes but w/e the list is sorta fine

 

Bulb is bad design as its always live in the grave, a fair alternative would be something like Unknown or Jet Synchron, but w/e not relevent

Raigeki is inexcusable, they unbanned a OTK button, it's that much worse since the format is all floaty since Rai becomes less of a "nuke" and more of a OTK this turn button

 

The OCG:

 

Trish-Proven to be fine in the game for OCG

Stein-meh, all or nothing that actully has a positive effect of keeping some decks in place

DSF-why hasn't TCG done this?

Wind Up Carriar-THE BROKENNESS HIMSELF

Dyson are you actually retarded? Trish has been out for a year OCG side and let me list the decks that use it

 

Rulers

T.G. Madolchey

Heroes (your point)

Shaddolls

Necloths

 

1/5 that's a failing grade, and also OCG saw that Trish was one of the best Sync in the game and they nerfed necloth trish, you have to have a card in each place for it to work, you might scoff at that but it's actually very important...now please stop being an ignorant f*** and talk s*** about things you don't know a damn about

[/spoiler]

 

Shock Master can Freeze a lot of decks by calling the right card type. I don't think it qualifies as "OTK" either since its job is to seal effects so you can keep the lead during the following turns, not ending the game right there and then. I'm not very happy to hear that its balancing factor seems to be the amount of chainable responses that are available there though. It kind of sounds like having all that running rampart further pushes lower tier decks to the bottom just to keep Shock Master's OCG impact in check, essentially leaving triumphant the super floating decks from nowadays that laugh at that removal, AKA pushing sales for newer archetypes a bit more blatantly.

I do want to believe though that the REAL factor leaving Shock Master off the hook is new support nowadays making decks a bit more balanced in what kinds of effects they have distributed in them when deck-building, essentially diminishing the impact that Shock Master would potentially have.

 

Trishula confuses me. I think everyone OCG and TCG alike must have forgotten the exact formulas for decks to be able to drop 2 or even 3 Trishulas in a single turn. Maybe the pluses that decks nowadays get are so hard that not even multiple Trishulas can leave them with no play? I don't know if that'd be a good thing or not.Then again, they have Ritual Trishula with even more recycle power so I would guess the game is trying to shape up to have that be a thing, which sounds nuts to me taking a step back to look at it, be it Ritual or Synchro version.... IDK....

 

I must make the remark here that what I was calling "going for the OTK" was Raigeki in my post, which is in turn really only referring to the TCG side of the game. I truly am at best making assumptions when I'm talking of the OCG since I haven't as much as seen people playing it..

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Shock Master can Freeze a lot of decks by calling the right card type. I don't think it qualifies as "OTK" either since its job is to seal effects so you can keep the lead during the following turns, not ending the game right there and then. I'm not very happy to hear that its balancing factor seems to be the amount of chainable responses that are available there though. It kind of sounds like having all that running rampart further pushes lower tier decks to the bottom just to keep Shock Master's OCG impact in check, essentially leaving triumphant the super floating decks from nowadays that laugh at that removal, AKA pushing sales for newer archetypes a bit more blatantly.

I do want to believe though that the REAL factor leaving Shock Master off the hook is new support nowadays making decks a bit more balanced in what kinds of effects they have distributed in them when deck-building, essentially diminishing the impact that Shock Master would potentially have.

 

Trishula confuses me. I think everyone OCG and TCG alike must have forgotten the exact formulas for decks to be able to drop 2 or even 3 Trishulas in a single turn. Maybe the pluses that decks nowadays get are so hard that not even multiple Trishulas can leave them with no play? I don't know if that'd be a good thing or not.Then again, they have Ritual Trishula with even more recycle power so I would guess the game is trying to shape up to have that be a thing, which sounds nuts to me taking a step back to look at it, be it Ritual or Synchro version.... IDK....

 

I must make the remark here that what I was calling "going for the OTK" was Raigeki in my post, which is in turn really only referring to the TCG side of the game. I truly am at best making assumptions when I'm talking of the OCG since I haven't as much as seen people playing it..

Shockmaster:

 

I think it is honestly a bit of both that makes Shockmaster tolerable in OCG. If you take Heroes for an example, sure shock call spells in the mirror is a huge adv push, but its not likely to last for long for the simple reason that Heroes for one can work of all 3 colors pretty well. I think the reason they decided not to ban Shockmaster in October was they took one look at Qliphorts and Necloths and realized...what could these monsters do if they could just focus on being all spells and monsters. Shock does balance the OCG, we consistantly have a ~ 10-15/10-15/10 M/S/T split OCG side which is how I believe the game should be run (this can however be attributed to the good amount of generic Traps available seeing that Shock was only really relevant in July and sorta/not really in October and a guarantee not to be once the Mist gets a limit. TCG due to the Heavy ban really weakened the purples in power and that's arguably why #16 looks like nightmare. Yes it can lock a deck out potentially, but the fact remains if you balance your deckbuilding, and no balls to the wall R4 toobox decks like Star Seraph Dolls or Star Diamond exist (Idk, July was a shit OCG format, either you ran into a person summoning 2 Shock then Tossing a Winda to lock or you ran into people milling Soul Charge with Ddude under the cover of shocks)...like that was crazy cause you could walk out of a shock summon with more Cards in hand than you started (fault of stick chair chair and Stick, Diamond, Charge, Chair....I hope those sequence of words never make sense for TCG). But Shock and Trish suffer form the same problem. 3 Mat, they are inherently a 3 card investment in a format that shits on card form the extra atm. Shock is rarely at fault, it is mostly the engine that permits it to go rampant.

 

Trishula: Those combos do exist I suppose. One could Gateway+2 Shi En+Trishloop if they open the right 5 cards...but I can win the game if I open the right five cards by that logic..Trish will never move to more than 1 cause its in the same category as BLS and DAD, it is a boss monster that when dropped cleans up the act. Now why is reg Trish fine in OCG? Well one, OCG is a faster format so you can generate adv back unless you get hit when you're down. Two, 3 card investments are risky OCG side, and the only deck that can do it easily and when needed is Heros or S Knights after pitching a Unknown/Veiler and drawing IF and going Noden+lv1 Tuner+Lv4...most decks have a hard time bringing it out. The Trish loops you fear are likely the infernity ones where you either need multiple Desynchros or Brio...the first is a shit idea and the latter is banned forever till it gets a OPT

 

Raigeki: A one sided nuke that will at the very least be a +0 and often more can never be justified, Not only that, its generic. I've had to heavy my opponent when I have cards set and that's a price I have to pay, Rai has no such price and is just bonkers off the wall...BA make mask that fact but it will become clear soon

 

TL:DR

 

You have to play Ocg, Pref Sept 2013/April 2014/Oct 2014 to understand in full what I am saying

[Toffee.]

Solemn J is used to counter balance Heavy...and a mill 1 is VASTLY different than a half your LP..

Solemn Warning is a card; better Limit Chaos Emperor Dragon.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Solemn Warning is a card; better Limit Chaos Emperor Dragon.

That's not the same, CED is not a direct counter to Warning is it? Heavy and Solemn J are direct counters to each other....yousarcastic analogy does not make the cut sadly

[Aerion Brightflame]

That's not the same, CED is not a direct counter to Warning is it? Heavy and Solemn J are direct counters to each other....yousarcastic analogy does not make the cut sadly

 

Why is Solemn Judgment a direct counter to Heavy? At least more so than Warning is to any monster? 

 

Both are negation cards with fairly generic activation conditions. I don't see anything there that makes his analogy invalid? 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Why is Solemn Judgment a direct counter to Heavy? At least more so than Warning is to any monster? 

 

Both are negation cards with fairly generic activation conditions. I don't see anything there that makes his analogy invalid? 

That part of the equation is fine

SJ IS a direct counter to CED just like SJ is to heavy as it is one of the common cards that can stop heavy

 

where he falls apart is that Heavy is a direct counter to SJ which CED is not to Warning....he's trying to force me to say CED would be fine in OCG and then lampoon  me with that, but the fact remains the hand nuke is too strong in OCG atm....hell I would say CED would be less damaging if unbanned in TCG cause of BA and Shaddolls...

[Toffee.]

So.... Any card is fine@1 as long as Solemn Warning/Judgment exist?

This type of logic is incredibly fucking flawed, you know.

[Maeriberii Haan]

See, the main thing about that argument is basically the fact that you're relying on a 1-off unsearchable card to counter another one-off unsearchable card.

 

Also with that logic, Bribe/Magic Drain is technically a Heavy counter too, and they'd do a better job since they're, y'know, not limited (at best).

 

just want to point this out

 

oh, and

 

You have to play Ocg, Pref Sept 2013/April 2014/Oct 2014 to understand in full what I am saying

 

Barely anyone will understand you then since almost no one here plays OCG. Just explain it without the argument being too format specific.

 

Thank you.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So.... Any card is fine@1 as long as Solemn Warning/Judgment exist?

This type of logic is incredibly f***ing flawed, you know.

I said that's not the case, please read my statement again

 

See, the main thing about that argument is basically the fact that you're relying on a 1-off unsearchable card to counter another one-off unsearchable card.

 

Also with that logic, Bribe/Magic Drain is technically a Heavy counter too, and they'd do a better job since they're, y'know, not limited (at best).

 

just want to point this out

 

oh, and

 

 

Barely anyone will understand you then since almost no one here plays OCG. Just explain it without the argument being too format specific.

 

Thank you.

 

Well Solemn J's power is limited by the simple fact, in the late game Solemn J cannot do much to ruin set up, like sure you may be able to stop something for escalating but the set up still exists (Thinking Necloths with grave searches, Qliphorts with P'scales and pseudofloat, Shaddolls with legit float, and Heroes with Shadowmist Float), it's outlcassed by Torrential in late game (it suffers from the same manner of problem BTH does which is why they both see less play). It suffers in the early game cause half your lp can be in the 3-4k range which is...ugh. Compuls is a better from of removal in early game. Which leaves Solemn J to be set and wait for a power spell like Charge/Heavy/Reborn to be played.

 

Heavy kills backrow and is thus a counter, hopefully that is more clear, tho I can't say much about OCG atm, cause SECE has really shifted things around. The Heroes are being shit by the searchable skill drain card of Qliphorts and now since the wind shaddoll is ass, the hyped shaddolls hero build died out fast. Time and banlist will tell I guess

[Toffee.]

Well Solemn J's power is limited by the simple fact, in the late game Solemn J cannot do much to ruin set up, like sure you may be able to stop something for escalating but the set up still exists (Thinking Necloths with grave searches, Qliphorts with P'scales and pseudofloat, Shaddolls with legit float, and Heroes with Shadowmist Float), it's outlcassed by Torrential in late game (it suffers from the same manner of problem BTH does which is why they both see less play).

Well Heavy Storm's power is limited by the simple fact, in the late game Heavy Storm cannot do much to ruin set up, like, sure, you may be able to stop something for escalating but the set up will still occur (Thinking any decks that play Ygo), it's outclassed by Dark Bribe in late game (It suffers from the same manner of problem that everything in OCG has which is why it's such a wonky format).

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well Heavy Storm's power is limited by the simple fact, in the late game Heavy Storm cannot do much to ruin set up, like, sure, you may be able to stop something for escalating but the set up will still occur (Thinking any decks that play Ygo), it's outclassed by Dark Bribe in late game (It suffers from the same manner of problem that everything in OCG has which is why it's such a wonky format).

Err not really tho, Heavy can ruin P scales late game, Heavy can ruin Necloth's Vanity, heavy can shit on whatever backrow Heroes set. Heavy is the one staple of the OCG game atm, nothing else (except maybe MST is a staple)

[Maeriberii Haan]

Wait, why are we comparing Heavy and Dark Bribe now? The two things are completely different in role.

As for SJ, lategame it's a bit worse since it's too slow in changing games. You're more likely staring several monsters already on the field at that point, so an immediate answer will be far more valuable.

Also, to moderate the discussion back to the original topic, please bear in mind that this is a thread to discuss OCG/TCG as compared to the mixed online format as a whole (not only rated, mind you), or the mixed online format and its usage in general.

This thread is not for discussing OCG or TCG itself, so please keep this on topic.

Just a reminder.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Wait, why are we comparing Heavy and Dark Bribe now? The two things are completely different in role.
As for SJ, lategame it's a bit worse since it's too slow in changing games. You're more likely staring several monsters already on the field at that point, so an immediate answer will be far more valuable.
Also, to moderate the discussion back to the original topic, please bear in mind that this is a thread to discuss OCG/TCG as compared to the mixed online format as a whole (not only rated, mind you), or the mixed online format and its usage in general.
This thread is not for discussing OCG or TCG itself, so please keep this on topic.
Just a reminder.

Think we've beaten that horse to death tbh

[Maeriberii Haan]

If so, make a new thread, and let this one die.

[Dog King]

i think i would use it to see what the card will do to the tcg under tcg list once it actually comes out in tcg

But yeah this was something that i had realised when i dueled on dn

[werewolfjedi]

should they try to make a DN ban list?

[Maeriberii Haan]

Eh, this thread is just beating a dead horse by now, and really I should've locked this since a while ago.