Cards You Hate To Play Against - Discussion

[CLG Klavier]

Powercreep simply means that new "balanced" is old "OP", want it or not. Power level rose, new cards aren't pushed/etc. They're simply made for today's standards. Don't compare Nekroz to I dunno, Mist Valley or Blackwings or whatnot. Those are relics of the past. Compare them to BA, Qliphorts, Ritual Beasts. Comparing to old cards? Sure, Nekroz are broken. For new standards? They're pretty fine.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Klavier, that is the reason people don't like powercreep. Because a constantly changing standard can be dangerous. Anyway, this is off-topic as fuck, so I came up with a specific card I dislike playing against. Mistake. Fucks up Volcanics and Traptrix pretty hard, and considering my current deck is a hybrid of the two, that is quite annoying.

[CLG Klavier]

So long new cards are up to new standards? Not really.

Power creep is unavoidable and happens in every game. It's not YGO-specific.

[Expelsword]

Comparing to old cards? Sure, Nekroz are broken. For new standards? They're pretty fine.

 

Yeah... Juuuust fine.

http://puu.sh/guyc7/8c40c0d81d.png

http://puu.sh/guyoW/0b49073910.png

[Toffee.]

Those are relics of the past.

Saying they are relics is a bit of a stretch, you know...

I mean, Volcanics became somewhat of a thing because they gave us a Blaze Accelerator that could be used on the opponnet's turn.
Didn't really do anything gamebreaking, per say, since we already had stuff like Scattershot/etc, the difference here is that you can use them on the opponnet's turn.

[Spinny]

Sure, Nekroz are broken. For new standards? They're pretty fine.

Nekroz are not fine. Nekroz are really not fine. Please dont call them fine, even by meta standards they are BS.

[CLG Klavier]

Yeah... Juuuust fine.

http://puu.sh/guyc7/8c40c0d81d.png

http://puu.sh/guyoW/0b49073910.png

A brand new deck people don't have enough experience against yet tops a lot?! Shocking! Same happened with BA, Qliphorts, Shaddolls, Tellarknights...eventually it all evened itself out. Give people time to adapt.

 

Saying they are relics is a bit of a stretch, you know...

I mean, Volcanics became somewhat of a thing because they gave us a Blaze Accelerator that could be used on the opponnet's turn.
Didn't really do anything gamebreaking, per say, since we already had stuff like Scattershot/etc, the difference here is that you can use them on the opponnet's turn.

Because they got modern-level support. Else they still wouldn't be much.

[.Rooster]

 

I don't like this card much, but it isn't evil or anything.

[Althemia]

Powercreep simply means that new "balanced" is old "OP", want it or not. Power level rose, new cards aren't pushed/etc. They're simply made for today's standards. Don't compare Nekroz to I dunno, Mist Valley or Blackwings or whatnot. Those are relics of the past. Compare them to BA, Qliphorts, Ritual Beasts. Comparing to old cards? Sure, Nekroz are broken. For new standards? They're pretty fine.

You could have said a lot of other examples and been correct, but imho you chose one of the worst. Mainly because Nekroz are a new level of power creep that is almost definitely better than everything else. If other things were comparable to them, then other things would be winning from the merit of the deck and not from the merit of the floodgates that it's been playing. But it isn't the case, as other decks have to rely on cards that don't demonstrate their deck's strengths in order to beat it. I think that should be a sign of power creep over everything else if I've ever seen it.

A better example would have been New Six Samurai vs Old Six Samurai, which I still feel is one of the best ways of demonstrating power creep.

OT: Super Polymerization was one of the only cards I truly had gripes with when I played this game properly. Thank goodness that card's gone.

[Blake]

To be honest, the major gripe I have with the powercreep is not that cards get progressively more powerful (it's a vile marketing technique, but it would be utopian to expect Konami to actually come up with new and fresh ideas to convince people to buy more instead of just making things more and more OP every year). It's that it kills any kind of fun or creativity there can be. Look at Gishki and Gem-Knights, for example: both elemental archetypes focused on one kind of Special Summoning, both have searchers and dedicated spell cards to bring out their boss monsters. Yet, they play differently: Gishki boss monsters are Ritual, so Main Deck monsters, which need to be searched out. Their main tribute fodder are also their searchers, so they're limited in number, and you have to constantly recycle them in order to keep the deck working. Gem-Knights, on the other hand, don't have that problem, but their boss monsters are more specialized than Gishkis, and with more focus on aggression rather than removal, while Gishkis mess with the hand in a way that was not unheard of, but definitely uncommon in the format, and feature lots of non-destruction removal (spinning and bouncing). This makes their playstyle different.

 

Now, take Nekroz and Infernoids. Other than the blue border of Nekroz cards, what's exactly the difference? Monsters summonable by the hand, lots of banishing monsters from the graveyard, and free nukes/removal everywhere. Maybe Unicore, for all its brokenness, is the only unique thing Nekroz have. BAs? Free removal and searching/drawing everywhere. No need for intelligent resource management if you NEVER find yourself hard-pressed for cards when you make a rash decision. No need to take strategies to overcome problematic monsters: just spam Virgil and Fire Lake, duh. Really, lately a deck that doesn't search, summon and remove for barely no cost isn't competitive. Doesn't it say something BAD about the gamestate when everything that deviates from the "winmoar" formula, anything that imposes limitation on players, forcing them to actually play the game... is regarded as not worth playing because, well, they never win? Sadly, there's not much to do about that: Konami's never been all that good with mixing interesting concepts and good realization, but with the latest decks, they seem to have just given up on the idea altogether.

i'm sorry but did you really just use gishki as an example of something good/fun in the game

 

because gishki are an absolutely fucking hated archetype for all of their bullshit

 

In addition, you really don't seem to have a grasp of any top deck. The fact you chose to compare Nekroz and Infernoid, which is a comparison with nothing to it... makes no sense. Nekroz also have Valkyrus, which is a huge selling point.

 

In addition, as I already told you, BA take effort to play. They aren't herp-a-derp, unless they're playing against a pile of complete shit. But then most things are herp-a-derp.

 

Like, nothing you've said is new to the game. The only difference is that, modern day, Destruction is a weak form of removal unless en masse.

 

Dragon Rulers are search and summon, with blaster/draccossack/big eye/etc. for removal. Inzektors were pure spam, search, destroy. Rabbit was spit out Laggias/Dolkkas for cheap, which aren't removal but still can shut the opp out. Wind-ups were spam in a can. New Six Sams were spam in a can with Shi En for a boss. And so on.

 

The only real difference is that fact that things like going to the grave now.

[Cosmo.]

I think the cards i hate most playing against are meta cards, they're just so overused and boring and linear, they aren't fun at all

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I think the cards i hate most playing against are meta cards, they're just so overused and boring and linear, they aren't fun at all

some of the meta decks of the past were super cool. 4-axis and HAT immediately come to mind.

[ihop]

I think how "fun" a deck is is entirely subjective. I myself found 4-axis and HAT really dull and actually enjoyed stuff like Rejuv-less Dragon Rulers or Mermail far more because it's not just sitting on 4 backrow and grinding out a win. Quite frankly I like the way BA play and I like to play against them, can't say the same for the other two because one is a floodgate-fest and the other takes so long to make a turn that I want to fall asleep, but really this current meta imo isn't much worse than others that we've seen.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

I think how "fun" a deck is is entirely subjective. I myself found 4-axis and HAT really dull and actually enjoyed stuff like Rejuv-less Dragon Rulers or Mermail far more because it's not just sitting on 4 backrow and grinding out a win. Quite frankly I like the way BA play and I like to play against them, can't say the same for the other two because one is a floodgate-fest and the other takes so long to make a turn that I want to fall asleep, but really this current meta imo isn't much worse than others that we've seen.

That is a respectable opinion. I personally love grindy games (due to my experience playing control in MtG) so HAT was really fun for me.

[Expelsword]

Now, take Nekroz and Infernoids. Other than the blue border of Nekroz cards, what's exactly the difference?

 

Free removal and searching/drawing everywhere. No need for intelligent resource management if you NEVER find yourself hard-pressed for cards when you make a rash decision. No need to take strategies to overcome problematic monsters. Really, lately a deck that doesn't search, summon and remove for barely no cost isn't competitive.

 

These statements could not be further from Infernoids.

Contrary to your beliefs, their "free" nukes are actually prohibitively expensive and the deck is prone to dead hands. They have virtually no way to recover their spent resources, so punishing even slight overextension could mean the game.

Just because you can't beat Infernoids doesn't mean they're good, especially compared to Necloth or Burning Abyss.

[BlackBeartic]

I got a great list

 

Nekroz

Qlis

Vanity

Skill Drain

oh and Cyber Dragon Infinity

 

Rubbish floods and cancerous decks :D

 

Can't wait for my raid raptors to get that counter trap so i can shut nekroz up a bit.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Just because they have internal consistency issue doesn't mean they're not atrociously made.

 

Well, that doesn't mean playing them is unfun too, but Infernoids is definitely a stupid deck whose entire mechanic is unhealthy.

[vla1ne]

many nice words.

the only thing I'm responding to In your post is the one against Infernoids. yes they can swarm, but Infernoids take FAR more thought to play than you're giving them credit for, in the hands of somebody who doesn't really have planning skills, Qliphort, BA and to an extent, Nekroz/ Heroes, are very easy to play, and can grant you easy wins, but Infernoid are as liable to help a beginner win as they are to shoot them in the foot. you could easily lock yourself out of every other play in your deck if you don't play smart with them, they might have a similar end goal to Nekroz, but the way they attempt to reach it is vastly different. Infernoids (without dream) punish you harder for overextensions and misplays than almost any of the other potential tier one decks in the game, or at least the ones I've seen do.

[Slinky]

Altair is not that bad.

Saqlifice is worse than scout or towers by far. You can't reasonably outplay Saq.

 

Can we have a card that banishes a face-up Spell/Trap please?

Preferably Normal Spell, so it can't fuck with your opponents plays?

[Delibirb]

Tried making an Infernoid.dek. And I mention that it's not a good Infernoid deck by any stretch since it's basically a Nehemoth/Lilith OTK that works by basically milling most of the deck, activating Void Dreams, summoning Lilith and Nehemoth, Fusioning Tierra with 3 monsters and OTKing against an empty field. Tried it against my friend's standard Qliphort.dek. 4 wins out of 4. It's basically Lightsworns on steroids.

Good for you? That doesn't prove very much. It's totally ok for you to not like Infernoids or playing against them; but the reasons you gave are not actually pertinent/correct.

[Blake]

Well, OCG infernoids appear to use "6-8" cyber Stein, in the form of 1-3 stein between deck and side + 3 reasoning and 2 monster gate

But that's OCG.

[Lonk]

To be fair for the game, I do like the direction where the game is going.  All the Deck Concepts created and old concepts given new life with support makes the game much more interesting as a whole.  However, it's when the R&D department gets crazy with removing restrictions on card design is when it turns toxic.  Ironically, it makes the game less interesting than previous if all what people play are the Decks that have a startling edge against every other Deck in the game.  Then, it becomes a pissing contest in the R&D department to see which cards they can make that can overpower those Decks.

 

It's not a coincidence that Nekroz came after Qliphorts, which came after Shaddolls, each succeeding Deck creeping out the other in terms of power.  And from what I am hearing, Igknights will come after Nekroz in succession and power creep?

[vla1ne]

TCG cannot into Cyber Stein. That said, I do run 3 Reasoning. Tried also making a pure, non-OTK deck. So far, though, I only managed to make it into a weird Synchro hybrid that doesn't really work.

That said, I'm sorry if I started a discussion about Infernoids. They weren't even the focus of my post, yet it seems like I sparked a debate. I apologize...

I wasn't meaning to debate either, so I apologize as well.

as for ignights, the things I've been hearing about them stem mostly from rescue hamster following the tradition of all the other furry rescue creatures by becoming horribly broken.

[Blake]

it's not hamster or rabbit's fault at all, they just happen to be casualties prone to breaking

Igknights are stupid in their own right

[Blake]

The main reason for the creep is that Konami is fucking terrified of sets like Cyberdark Impact/Tactical Evolution (credited with Phantom Darkness happening and had NO good cards on release)/Shadow Specters ruining them, so when they release a weak set like that (Hint Hint: CROS and SECE fall under this overall, due to the overall failure of Infernoids and Zefra), they have a knee jerk reaction to release broken stuff. Thankfully, Shadow Specters did this less so than its predecessors and followers, but it still caused cards like 101 (fair, but was still a sign of creep), the OCG Exclusives (Nebra Fucking Disk), Sylvans (manifested more in Primal Origin), and LVAL fed into similar such things with Artifacts and the extra Sylvan Support in PRIO.