Le Trap

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

So it has come to my attention, that the entire OCG/TCG debate (or atleast like 90%) of it is first or second generation shock waves of a set of like 6 cards. Let me introduce the main player

 

 

 

This lead to the Banning of solemn Judgment and the limiting of Torrential, Compuls, and BTH

 

So these five cards have cause'd their own set or turmoil between the format. Let's look at the diffrences

 

Torrential (OCG:3 TCG:1)  Compuls (OCG:3 TCG:1) Solemn J (OCG:1 TCG:0) HFD (OCG:1 TCG:0) BTH (OCG:2 TCG:1) 

 

Ideally Solemn Warning should be in this discussion, but due to being @1 in both formats, I'll leave it out until/if it moves

 

So what's the Problem?

 

TCG bans (Heavy Storm now HFD) which leads to the staple traps being either limited or banned. What do I mean by shock waves?

 

First Generation: No mass wipe, Flood Gates like Macro, Soul Drain, and D-Fissure limited

First Generation: No trap line up, Stratos and Trishula do too much damage when summoned to the already hindered back row, therefore not unbanned. As in burning a compuls on stratos's second effect or such can be a nightmare of a waste if you only have 1 to use.

First Generation: No trap line up, Reborn and Rekindeling can do too much of a momentum swing, banned and limited respectively

First Generation: Extensive Trap line up, Wind Up can have more power, Zenmaiety semi limited

First Generation: No trap line up, digging cards like Upstart and Reckless (do you guys still do that) become more popular...

 

etc.

 

Second Generation: Stratos is banned: ROTA unlimit

Second Generation: Trishula is banned: GUB unban (I strongly think OCG should unban GUB too, so this is a bad example)

 

etc.

 

Anyway you can pretty much account for 95% of the list in just 2 generations. So the Question is...was banning HFD a smart move

 

NOTE: Yes, IK heavy was the original catalyst, but I can explain in detail later why HFD is a more healthy version of Heavy. They are in effect for this discussion, the same card

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

Well, we already have Raigeki.

 

What's the worst that could happen?

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Well, we already have Raigeki.

What's the worst that could happen?

I'd assume people who've gotten acustom to TCG's sheltered format will cry

[- Minimania -]

I'd assume people who've gotten acustom to TCG's sheltered format will cry

Actually, i'm okay with raigeki out. I'd be fine if they unbanned any of the cards in the op. This is my honest opinion. The only reason I cry is because Nekroz (DIE)

[The Highlander]

The unbanning of heavy storm and harpie's feather duseter would be in a certain way justified IF they get a clause whiuch prevents the user from inflicting damage to the opponent during that turn, other wise these cards promote uninnovative glasscannon OTK decks, which simply boring for trying to use the same OTK combo over and over (which would actually come down to wasted time for a game in which either one player goes second and OTKs or loses).

(it would also be a good idea to limit those to destroy face-down backrow, so that certain decks which rely on their continuous spells/traps do not die instantly/or would have about no chance once one of these cards appears).

[Hello my name is Enguin]

The unbanning of heavy storm and harpie's feather duseter would be in a certain way justified IF they get a clause whiuch prevents the user from inflicting damage to the opponent during that turn, other wise these cards promote uninnovative glasscannon OTK decks, which simply boring for trying to use the same OTK combo over and over (which would actually come down to wasted time for a game in which either one player goes second and OTKs or loses).

(it would also be a good idea to limit those to destroy face-down backrow, so that certain decks which rely on their continuous spells/traps do not die instantly/or would have about no chance once one of these cards appears).

 

A hundred billion times no to this entire post. Bastardising erratas such as the ones inflicted on Crush Card Virus, Exchange of the Spirit and Ring of Destruction are bad enough without adding more to the list of unfortunates. A HFD errata'd to include a no damage clause would not be HFD. If they want to go down that route, then make a new card, don't tarnish an iconic name. And if that same errata were to also make it only destroy set backrow then it'd simply become a far worse Galaxy Cyclone/Night Beam.

[ihop]

idc about all this theory but I couldn't agree more with that post^

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Is it so hard to understand the only cards getting erratas are ones banned on both lists?

[Hello my name is Enguin]

Is it so hard to understand the only cards getting erratas are ones banned on both lists?

 

I understand it and also understand that I don't like it. They're banned for a reason and should remain banned for that reason as a signal of what not to do when designing a card, instead of being made crap and legal for no reason.

[Sleepy]

I'm pretty optimistic on the idea that Konami nowadays has a long-term strategy for unbanning long-time banned cards from both sides of the game.

If a card is banned in either OCG or TCG but not the other one, then it means there is a way for that card to exist in the game.

If a card is banned on both sides, then one of the reasons to powercreep the game a certain amount is for getting to the point of unbanning it.

 

If they test the waters or play-test it and fail repeatedly, I think this is when they decided to errata the ones they did errata. Though personally, I think Sinister Serpent could have been off the hook as is, or at the very least the errata was way too hard, and it is pretty much pack-filler worthy at best. By that time they had gotten carried away by the idea of tons of erratas. At least they stopped for now... but too bad they can't exactly undo this, the text in cards can only be over-ruled so much (preferably never).

 

 

 

As for the thread, I don't think the "issues" are necessarily actual ones.

Just like how people have a way to find the good things when playing casually (variety, interestingly rare combos, etc) and good but different things about playing competitively (heavy decision-making with the extreme consistency, planning for match-ups, etc), there is also not really a right vs wrong when it comes to TCG vs OCG.

 

It is not "those poor TCG bastards sissies have no way of handling backrow, but their best traps are all limited in exchange, it must be terrible".

And it is not "those OCG players are in their super advanced Asian level of difficulty with all the broken crap on threes... it sounds like a clusterfuck, I like not having my play interrupted by those Traps every step of the way thank you very much, and HFD is such an OTK enabler".

 

 

 

No, actually... I think the way decks are designed nowadays are much more tame than past generations, in a way. Like having safety locks of some sort to them. Sure they can still OTK but the plays will be more along the lines of:
-Shadolls get you this boss Fusion, and the rest of the swarm will be face-down.

-Nekroz will bring out a boss or two at a time, but you now have to wait until your monster field is wiped before your Ritual Spells can search themselves, better safe that Manju for the monster then.

-Even Pendulums and Burning Abyss, as much as they float and potentially swarm, they care about saving up things for the re-bounce play later.

 

As opposed to say, the 5Ds era when defense didn't exist and mostly everything you drew into was meant to go hard against the opponent. I remember how easily Lightsworns and even triple Rekindling Flamvells did. 

 

Where am I going with this? built in extra responses from decks nowadays and built in aspects like these above^, Harpie's/Heavy is still a potential OTK thread definitely, but I think it should be less so than before. So I wouldn't really condemn its existence as I did with Heavy say, 4 years ago. Especially with how on the OCG it is doing the way it is.

 

However, I am happier with the game without the obligatory S/T total wipe in the game, always argued against Heavy because I don't think "necessary evil" as it was called is a must to have. True Heavy was banned as a second try after the idea having already failed once before, taking advantage of the list split between TCG and OCG, during a time Heavy had essentially become irrelevant to the stronger deck of the time (Dragon Rulers), but so far the only issue would be a bit of a lack on specialized S/T removal from the newer archetypes, but apart from the sudden lack of attention in that department I think the game on this side was doing well enough.

 

 

 

I don't really Stratos is too good to come back to 1 in TCG, it'd be just what I'm saying decks lack^ and it'd be more consistent than Rightenous Justice anywhere (which is pretty meh if it only works with E HEROs and will still allow anti-swarm to kick in as you are setting up for it so I guess I understand why it doesn't see play... I'm getting side-tracked) 

Neither are some of the generic Traps you mention (or even other cards unrelated to this topic like Thousand-Eyes Restrict). The game doesn't need HFD to counter that.

 

Your format is about having enough counterability material to prevent potentially unfair pushes from happening, and TCG seems to be more about saving up that important limited card(s) and trying to make them count. Though some of those Traps could also be moved up in TCG, and that wouldn't mean HFD would have to come back. 

 

I think the "Set 5 pass" descriptions are just exaggerating and don't really accurately resume TCG at all. I could be wrong, but last time I played the actual game IRL it wasn't really like that.

[The Highlander]

A hundred billion times no to this entire post. Bastardising erratas such as the ones inflicted on Crush Card Virus, Exchange of the Spirit and Ring of Destruction are bad enough without adding more to the list of unfortunates. A HFD errata'd to include a no damage clause would not be HFD. If they want to go down that route, then make a new card, don't tarnish an iconic name. And if that same errata were to also make it only destroy set backrow then it'd simply become a far worse Galaxy Cyclone/Night Beam.

Well I do not mind either way, however these cards cannot be unbanned as they are.

[Agro]

*tries to find point of thread*

 

Oh, there it is.

So the Question is...was banning HFD a smart move

Yes.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Here is the thing. TCG and OCG are not the same game. Their banlists differ because of this simple fact. The majority of players on this site prefer TCG, although some, like Reversal, who spent a considerable amount of time to explain why they are as different as they are, prefer OCG. Calling one format better than the other is ignorant, as they are effectively two separate games that play out very differently. Insulting people for their opinion on this matter is wrong, just as much as making blanket statements, assuming they will apply to both.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That's really the point. At one point I used to quite vocally say OCG was "better" but that's really not true. Depending on the to HFD/Heavy or not, you get either the TCG or the OCG by large. 

 

As Kinuhata mentioned, you can't really say either format is better anymore as the waves from the individual formats has largely calmed down.

 

Sleepy, true, TER still being banned is a shame and hopefully one or more lists will fix that come July, what I meant is by large, today's April lists are quite good and basically every choice can be justified by HFD or not.

 

I will however not say the lists are perfect. I don't agree with TCG's Super Poly ban nor their Snatch Steal unban. Likewise I am not at all happy with OCG's construct ban.

 

The point of this thread is less to say "x is right, y is wrong" but more for I guess me to understand what makes the TCG way of doing things so appealing 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Luckily, snatch steal was shoved back under the rug in April