[RESULTS ARE FINAL] 2016 Election for President of the United States | Donald Trump Victory

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I hypothesize that the Republican party will split into two groups. I've noticed that the candidates are not emphasizing the one thing that lead to the creation of the party in the first place: free labor. What is free labor exactly? Free labor is the ideal that a citizen can choose where they wish to work in an attempt to "move ahead in life". During the mid 1800's people within the party had this idea and clashed with the other half. This resulted in those favoring this concept to form the Republican party. Much like the Whig party split then, I feel it will happen now the Republican party. The party appears to be having an identity crisis already, and there is already quarreling going on within them. If they don't have a rebirth of what it means to be a Republican, the party as we know it may be no more.

Mate, that's awful for the republicans. If we assume a 1/3 split between Dems, Republicans, and Independents, cutting the Republicans in half, while the Dems grant amnesty to another 11 million voters is basically securing a never Right America

[Aerion Brightflame]

Mate, that's awful for the republicans. If we assume a 1/3 split between Dems, Republicans, and Independents, cutting the Republicans in half, while the Dems grant amnesty to another 11 million voters is basically securing a never Right America

 

Given how far right you are already this isn't exactly a terrible thing. Essentially it will work to undo the effect Regan had on your political spectrum. 

 

The right will adjust after that. Because honestly, you don't get party fractures like this unless the message you are trying to send simply doesn't work for most of the populace. The Republicans have gotten pushed so far right they can't actually win because they can't attract more moderate voters on party values. Then the left will start to adjust to compensate, and so politics evolves to suit the will of the people. It was going to happen within a decade or two anyway, this years sheet show just accelerated it. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Given how far right you are already this isn't exactly a terrible thing. Essentially it will work to undo the effect Regan had on your political spectrum.

 

The right will adjust after that. Because honestly, you don't get party fractures like this unless the message you are trying to send simply doesn't work for most of the populace. The Republicans have gotten pushed so far right they can't actually win because they can't attract more moderate voters on party values. Then the left will start to adjust to compensate, and so politics evolves to suit the will of the people. It was going to happen within a decade or two anyway, this years sheet show just accelerated it.

 

We don't really want the US to turn into Europe? Bernie is horrifying to see, but he's rare. If the Republican Party splits the far left will elect Bernies every year

[Aerion Brightflame]

We don't really want the US to turn into Europe? Bernie is horrifying to see, but he's rare. If the Republican Party splits the far left will elect Bernies every year

Speaking as a European, I fail to see why that idea is so scary. I have never understood this random fear or hatred of liberal agenda's that's present in certain branches of American politics.  Besides, your country shifting a little to the left doesn't mean becoming Europe, it just means you might take some of the sensible stuff Europe has done and apply it to the US. Blindly ignoring progress other nations have made because they aren't America is a really poor thing to do, because your essentially advocating for mediocrity. Which is a terrible thing for any country. 

 

Just as a reference point, Bernie Sanders would be a moderate by the standards of a lot of European political spectra. That's kinda evidence to how far to the right you've gotten over the past few decades if he seems wildly left wing. 

 

Just explain for me, without resorting to 'We'll turn into Europe' why your country shifting to the left a little is an inherently bad thing as you are trying to present it. Humor me because I just don't see any objective merits to these arguments as opposed to just like fear. 

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Speaking as a European, I fail to see why that idea is so scary. I have never understood this random fear or hatred of liberal agenda's that's present in certain branches of American politics.  Besides, your country shifting a little to the left doesn't mean becoming Europe, it just means you might take some of the sensible stuff Europe has done and apply it to the US. Blindly ignoring progress other nations have made because they aren't America is a really poor thing to do, because your essentially advocating for mediocrity. Which is a terrible thing for any country. 

 

Just as a reference point, Bernie Sanders would be a moderate by the standards of a lot of European political spectra. That's kinda evidence to how far to the right you've gotten over the past few decades if he seems wildly left wing. 

 

Just explain for me, without resorting to 'We'll turn into Europe' why your country shifting to the left a little is an inherently bad thing as you are trying to present it. Humor me because I just don't see any objective merits to these arguments as opposed to just like fear. 

Non-Russia Europe goes against a lot of what the US stands for. Couple of things that stand out. 

 

1) England's Gun Laws are terrifying for example, Hillary already mentioned that she was willing to have an Australia style buy back program. Not saying no background checks is good, but neither is England's level of gun revocation. 

 

2) Socialization is inherently ineffectiveness in the market, unless the gov is willing to become the complete supplier (which is stalinism over socialism). You either need to have an Authoritarian Stalinistic model or a near pure capitalism

 

3) Trade-Agreements, things like NAFTA and the TPP are terrible for the economy, just look at how many jobs have left the US

 

4) Also funk PC culture, I don't know if I can quantify it though and accuse Europe of being more affected by it relative to the US

[Aerion Brightflame]

 

Non-Russia Europe goes against a lot of what the US stands for. Couple of things that stand out. 

 

1) England's Gun Laws are terrifying for example, Hillary already mentioned that she was willing to have an Australia style buy back program. Not saying no background checks is good, but neither is England's level of gun revocation. 

 

2) Socialization is inherently ineffectiveness in the market, unless the gov is willing to become the complete supplier (which is stalinism over socialism). You either need to have an Authoritarian Stalinistic model or a near pure capitalism

 

3) Trade-Agreements, things like NAFTA and the TPP are terrible for the economy, just look at how many jobs have left the US

 

4) Also f*** PC culture, I don't know if I can quantify it though and accuse Europe of being more affected by it relative to the US

 

So....fear? That's what 1&4 are for certain. 

 

Becoming like Europe does not mean having gun laws like the UK; The EU is largee and there are no standardised gun laws in it. We are generally more in favour of restricting them than US states, Britain especially, but it's not to say shifting to the left means taking each and every gun away. Hell the UK still has guns for personal use, just massive restrictions on getting hold of them.  

 

3 has literally nothing to do with moving to the left or being like Europe. TTP and TTIP are the sorts of things that will happen regardless of which political orientation you belong to. Because you know they have, and because the Free Market is an inevitability nowadays, you can't prop a country like the US up without foreign trade and you need a free market to do that in a reasonable matter. 

 

Besides, do you want to know something? Blue-collar jobs have been collapsing in America for the past few decades, not because of liberal movements or trade agreements but because of Capitalism, the same thing that pushed for a free market. Because when it's cheaper to go to a different country for labour, they will do assuming you can't offer a competitive product for the price. In addition you've gutted unions, which means employee's have relatively few rights. That is in comparison to you know European Labour Laws, which you know help mean employee's don't get screwed in contract, hours, health and safety, rights, privacy in the work place, all these wonderful things that apply to any EU citizen. 

 

And again, you seem to think moving to the left means becoming fully socialist. Why? You can, and already do, have socialist policies in place within a different political spectra. You have medicare, medicade already, and those are very much socialist programs. Government owned social organisations can even be competitive in the market when done well; The NHS is one of the largest and most competitive employers in Europe, and the British government managed to turn at least one train-service from failing standards when privatised to being the most successful in the country when they owned and operated it. There is room for both the private and public sectors to co-exist within a country. Because pure unchecked capitalism does not work, because the market cannot grow forever. Even if it does, it will ruin the livelihood of maybe 99% of the population for the sake of the 1%? Which is inherently awful, and something that no government can afford. 

 

This still doesn't answer why shifting a little to the left is a bad thing.  It just suggests you think moving to the left means becoming fully socialist; The US moving to the left means you become moderate, not socialist. Because you lean to the right already. What's inherently wrong with having the equivalent of the EU Labour Laws or socialised Healthcare? Talking the bits of Europe, or the left that works, taking the bits of the right that works and combining then? Why is taking any of the left such a horrid idea as you seem to imply? 

 

EDIT: And I say this because if you actually look at statistics, adhering to the American way is not a path to being the best at something unless you like being in jail. 

[Dad]

Wait, Bernie wants no guns at all?  Cuz last time I checked, that was false.

[Aerion Brightflame]

From what I've found, no he is not in favour of full bans for firearms. Not even close to it. The most extreme stance he has on guns is a federal ban on assault weapons. Which isn't unreasonable. 

 

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-gun-policy/ 

 

This being the most comprehensive source I could use in spite of the name

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Wait, Bernie wants no guns at all?  Cuz last time I checked, that was false.

Nah, Bernz is cool w/ Guns. Background Checks (which we call all agree on). Don't know his position on Assult Weapons, but hopefully he's smart enough to see they're not the poblem

 

Hills was the one who made the comment saying she liked the Australia level gun ban

 

@Barty I'll respond after I get out of class in about a hour

[mido9]

And again, you seem to think moving to the left means becoming fully socialist. Why? You can, and already do, have socialist policies in place within a different political spectra. You have medicare, medicade already, and those are very much socialist programs. Government owned social organisations can even be competitive in the market when done well; The NHS is one of the largest and most competitive employers in Europe, and the British government managed to turn at least one train-service from failing standards when privatised to being the most successful in the country when they owned and operated it. There is room for both the private and public sectors to co-exist within a country. Because pure unchecked capitalism does not work, because the market cannot grow forever. 

 

But the USA has huge checks in place. It went from being much higher in terms of ease of starting business than any other country and now it's ~15th place

 

and now more businesses are closing than are being created for the first time since carter :http://www.gallup.com/businessjournal/180431/american-entrepreneurship-dead-alive.aspx

 

The US corporation tax is also the highest in the world now, with only chad and UAE higher, which all blow out small businesses and make it harder to get a job. When businesses dont compete, they have no reason to increase wages or increase quality of products or reduce prices or grow the business to create more jobs and they can just pocket more of their incomes. USA also had increasing social programs starting in 1965 until obamacare and easier housing mortgages funded by corporate tax, which reduces jobs, which moves money from workers to welfare-recipients, and now 'capitalist' USA has 41% of its GDP as government spending, while 'socialist' norway has 44%.

 

It also even has 60% of its budget allocated to welfare and over 100% debt because of it.

 

The USA has been getting increasingly socialist and increasingly oligarchical  for almost 60 years, not increasingly capitalist and free-marketist: http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/tenplanks.html

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Different topic: Kinda dissipointed with Trump, if we're going to go on the premise that Abortion is a crime (which I disgaree with) then him backing down on Women being just as guilty as the doctor (in most cases) is kinda sad. The man was supposed to speak his mind, not speak for the votes...guess no one is good this cycle

[mido9]

Different topic: Kinda dissipointed with Trump, if we're going to go on the premise that Abortion is a crime (which I disgaree with) then him backing down on Women being just as guilty as the doctor (in most cases) is kinda sad. The man was supposed to speak his mind, not speak for the votes...guess no one is good this cycle

Random note: In Greece after abortion was so heavily legalized and cared for it reached the point where it was used just as birth control because it was cheaper, which led to many womens' wombs being straight up sterile. Delegates at a conference on contraception said that only 6% of the 1.6 million fertile Greek women use any form of contraception. They said that regular abortions had caused sterility in 35% of Greek women.

 

http://www.rhm-elsevier.com/article/S0968-8080(04)24001-0/fulltext

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Random note: In Greece after abortion was so heavily legalized and cared for it reached the point where it was used just as birth control because it was cheaper, which led to many womens' wombs being straight up sterile. Delegates at a conference on contraception said that only 6% of the 1.6 million fertile Greek women use any form of contraception. They said that regular abortions had caused sterility in 35% of Greek women.

 

http://www.rhm-elsevier.com/article/S0968-8080(04)24001-0/fulltext

IK, I don't like Abortions, but it's not my right to tell others to stop going for it. If you wanna torch to your vagina, go for it

 

If they understand the risks, then we really can't tell them to not go for it

[Dad]

". .  .so I did support

when she chose to abort

because it's her body and therefore her choice"

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

". .  .so I did support

when she chose to abort

because it's her body and therefore her choice"

I'm confused, I've always maintained I'm pro-choice, but I don't have to be pro-abortion?

[Dad]

I'm confused, I've always maintained I'm pro-choice, but I don't have to be pro-abortion?

 

Key & Peele.  

 

You and I are literally in the same agreement.

[mido9]

I still think it should be legal, but not taxpayer-funded except for rape/etc, leave that to contraceptives maybe. If you wanna turn your womb into the sahara desert go ahead, but if it's your body and your choice, it's also your bill.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I still think it should be legal, but not taxpayer-funded, leave that to contraceptives maybe. If you wanna turn your womb into the sahara desert go ahead, but if it's your body and your choice, it's also your bill.

What about rape victims mate :/

[mido9]

What about rape victims mate :/

My bad sorry!

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

 

 

 

So....fear? That's what 1&4 are for certain. 

 

Becoming like Europe does not mean having gun laws like the UK; The EU is largee and there are no standardised gun laws in it. We are generally more in favour of restricting them than US states, Britain especially, but it's not to say shifting to the left means taking each and every gun away. Hell the UK still has guns for personal use, just massive restrictions on getting hold of them.  

 

3 has literally nothing to do with moving to the left or being like Europe. TTP and TTIP are the sorts of things that will happen regardless of which political orientation you belong to. Because you know they have, and because the Free Market is an inevitability nowadays, you can't prop a country like the US up without foreign trade and you need a free market to do that in a reasonable matter. 

 

Besides, do you want to know something? Blue-collar jobs have been collapsing in America for the past few decades, not because of liberal movements or trade agreements but because of Capitalism, the same thing that pushed for a free market. Because when it's cheaper to go to a different country for labour, they will do assuming you can't offer a competitive product for the price. In addition you've gutted unions, which means employee's have relatively few rights. That is in comparison to you know European Labour Laws, which you know help mean employee's don't get screwed in contract, hours, health and safety, rights, privacy in the work place, all these wonderful things that apply to any EU citizen. 

 

And again, you seem to think moving to the left means becoming fully socialist. Why? You can, and already do, have socialist policies in place within a different political spectra. You have medicare, medicade already, and those are very much socialist programs. Government owned social organisations can even be competitive in the market when done well; The NHS is one of the largest and most competitive employers in Europe, and the British government managed to turn at least one train-service from failing standards when privatised to being the most successful in the country when they owned and operated it. There is room for both the private and public sectors to co-exist within a country. Because pure unchecked capitalism does not work, because the market cannot grow forever. Even if it does, it will ruin the livelihood of maybe 99% of the population for the sake of the 1%? Which is inherently awful, and something that no government can afford. 

 

This still doesn't answer why shifting a little to the left is a bad thing.  It just suggests you think moving to the left means becoming fully socialist; The US moving to the left means you become moderate, not socialist. Because you lean to the right already. What's inherently wrong with having the equivalent of the EU Labour Laws or socialised Healthcare? Talking the bits of Europe, or the left that works, taking the bits of the right that works and combining then? Why is taking any of the left such a horrid idea as you seem to imply? 

 

EDIT: And I say this because if you actually look at statistics, adhering to the American way is not a path to being the best at something unless you like being in jail. 

 

I'm not apposed to shifting left mate, I do think our Abortion laws need to be fixed and fighting LGB at this point in time is ridiculous. The Death Penalty and converting the Military Budget to scientific advancements are my two most passionate topics to advocate for (and both are "liberal" movements)

 

What I dislike is that being Liberal seems like a package deal. I'm very much opposed to the universal amnesty and revolving door-border policy. Welfare as it's construed at the moment disgusts me. Which brings us to socialism, I'm an ardent believer in Stalinism, which is about as far economically left as one can get, I don't like stopping half-way, because that type of policy is the one that stops motivation to work. Socialism and Communism don't work cause there's is no motivation. Stalinism does, cause the motivation is not getting a bullet in the skull. Which as you might get, wouldn't fly in the US.

 

Instead of going further towards Sanders (and adding another ~4000 USD in taxes to people like me who have to work a full time job to pay tuition), I'm for a Rubio style end to SS, and the complete shift in the welfare program to lessen Frictional Unemployment. That money should be used to create public works projects (ie like the Wall) to put people back in work. Not to give them monthly allowances to try to find it themselves. That's why I'm not fond of European socialism

 

As for guns, I'm ashamed to say I voted for Hillary, because she quite literally said she approved of the Aussie style gun control. That scares me when the "moderate left" in my country is going for policies like that. As someone from a gun owning family, hearing her say something like that is enough to alienate me from the left

 

Is it fear in part? Sure. But that's how humans work to a degree

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/cops-find-man-accused-pepper-spraying-girl-trump-38050202 

 

I wonder how many new channels will report on this...likely none if we're going to be honest

 

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/crime-and-courts/girl-pepper-sprayed-at-donald-trump-rally-may-face-juvenile/article_6c85ebf6-ef2b-5a92-b177-b31dcd3fc3fb.html

[Dad]

How do you prove--in a crowd that size--she was sexually assaulted? I'd punch the jabroni in the face if he touched me too.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

How do you prove--in a crowd that size--she was sexually assaulted? I'd punch the jabroni in the face if he touched me too.

That's just it, he didn't touch her :/

[Dad]

This is he said she said. I don't believe either side. They should both be in jail.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

This is he said she said. I don't believe either side. They should both be in jail.

But the cops reviewed the video and supporters on both sides said nobody groped anyone...the mace guy and the girl yeah