Trump leaves in place Obama's protections for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered workers

[Sunshine Jesse]

1) Yes, but the recurring strawman to 'pence said this 15 years ago" is silly cause pence is not president. DJT has shown nothing but a willingness to reach out to the LGBT community, and this should settle that fear down

 

2) big·ot·ry ˈbiɡətrē/ noun intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. A good portion of the LGBT community fits this view with regards to religious Christians. In a certain way, the LGBT community would be bigotry to them

 

Good thing we have capitalism. Here. One firm sells products to gay people, the other does not. Gay people will go the first, and the latter will be out competed and lose revenue. Markets punish discrimination unless codified in law. (That's what happened in the south, it was codified to be Separate)

That's not much of punishment at all. Discriminating against minorities results in a loss of a minority of income.

 

There is no punishment for people who can do without the extra income, which is unacceptable.

 

Also there's nothing wrong with bigotry against bigotry and I'd argue that Christianity deserves every bit of intolerance that Islam receives.

 

Not that either belief inherently deserves intolerance

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

That's not much of punishment at all. Discriminating against minorities results in a loss of a minority of income.

 

There is no punishment for people who can do without the extra income, which is unacceptable.

 

Also there's nothing wrong with bigotry against bigotry and I'd argue that Christianity deserves every bit of intolerance that Islam receives.

 

Not that either belief inherently deserves intolerance

Not a firm assumption. A friend of a gay couple may boycott too, offset by anti-LGBT people people being more receptive. But it's still a net loss of Demand which will help out compete them on a local macro-scale

 

Christianity has it's flaws, but it's not stuck in 1000AD 

[Sunshine Jesse]

Being out-competed is meaningless and irrelevant. It's not a real consequence as it doesn't inherently cause anything to happen as a result.

 

Maybe in economic -theory-, but the practical nature of it is entirely different.

 

God forbid your respect for human rights takes precedence over your anti-PC agenda

[mido9]

Being out-competed is meaningless and irrelevant. It's not a real consequence as it doesn't inherently cause anything to happen as a result.

 

Maybe in economic -theory-, but the practical nature of it is entirely different.

 

God forbid your respect for human rights takes precedence over your anti-PC agenda

I think this matters because there will almost definitely be people hired just because of this law who didn't actually deserve it because the government can't read minds, can't really tell who's getting rejected because of discrimination or because they're terrible/products are limited and reserved/etc etc and it ends up being just not fair.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Being out-competed is meaningless and irrelevant. It's not a real consequence as it doesn't inherently cause anything to happen as a result.

Maybe in economic -theory-, but the practical nature of it is entirely different.

God forbid your respect for human rights takes precedence over your anti-PC agenda

Fighting facsism is more important to me than making cakes. If LGBT people are denied jobs or being killed, then I'll step in

[vla1ne]

well, it's not a bad thing, and it debunks some of the paranoia propoganda that has been spreading as of late. so while it's something that normally wouldn't be under the scope (good things rarely bein the topic of discussion these days and all that) it's definitely something worth respecting, and something worth being spread, since it helps counter any claims of trump removing the rights of LGBTwtfbbq people. is it something groundbreaking? no. but it's worth at least basic respect,

 

way i see it so far as businesses refusing service to people for racial/religious/sexual/ect reasons, businesses have the right to refuse whomever they wish, so long as they make it clear from the start. on the flip side to that, should they lose additional customers over such practices, then that too, is fair.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

I'm not talking about the funking cake, Christians have a long, documented history of violence and discrimination against the LGBT community, it's not like this is a new thing. It goes far beyond not baking a cake and you know it. Even now there are Christian groups like Focus on the Family, which advocates for conversion therapy, that are fighting tooth and nail to make sure that people in the LGBT community don't get equal rights. 

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and even funking Buddhists have a long history of LGBT discrimination. Christians aren't the only ones fighting against LGBT equality and making them the poster boy of Homophobia is downright silly, generalizing, and insulting.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and even funking Buddhists have a long history of LGBT discrimination. Christians aren't the only ones fighting against LGBT equality and making them the poster boy of Homophobia is downright silly, generalizing, and insulting.

Hey now, Hinduism had a god become transsexual for a while. And there's plenty of homosexuality implied. Problem with Hinduism is it's completely misogynistic 

[Sunshine Jesse]

Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and even f***ing Buddhists have a long history of LGBT discrimination. Christians aren't the only ones fighting against LGBT equality and making them the poster boy of Homophobia is downright silly, generalizing, and insulting.

But in the context of the western world, they actually are. You being insulted doesn't change this fact.

[Halubaris Maphotika]

But in the context of the western world, they actually are. You being insulted doesn't change this fact.

In the context of the Western World it is both Jews and Christians. Hell, even now as more Muslim's emigrate into Western countries, they are mostly vocal opponents of LGBT rights. This isn't as simple as it used to be, and numerous Christian organizations are retracting support for homophobic organizations. For Catholics, even the Pope has come out to denounce such homophobic zealotry.

[Tentacruel]

It's really hard for me, petty as it may seem, to be enthusiastic about supporting LGBT rights when things like

 

Also there's nothing wrong with bigotry against bigotry and I'd argue that Christianity deserves every bit of intolerance that Islam receives.

Not that either belief inherently deserves intolerance

 

are so casually tossed around.  Tolerance can't be that important if everyone just wants it for themselves.

[Sunshine Jesse]

Allow me to rephrase that in a less inflammatory manner, then:

 

Both Islam and Christianity deserve the same level of respect and tolerance. Given their history, neither one has the moral high ground over the other.

 

(Unless you were talking about a lack of tolerance towards opinions against gay marriage, in which case you're wrong and there's no debate there)

 

In the context of the Western World it is both Jews and Christians. Hell, even now as more Muslim's emigrate into Western countries, they are mostly vocal opponents of LGBT rights. This isn't as simple as it used to be, and numerous Christian organizations are retracting support for homophobic organizations. For Catholics, even the Pope has come out to denounce such homophobic zealotry.

 

I grew up around an abundance of both. The Jewish have been nothing but tolerant and understanding towards the LGBT and their causes, whereas the Christians... haven't been.

 

There are obviously bad apples in both, but the bad apples are far more prevalent in Christianity (and Islam) than the alternatives. To say it isn't the poster child is preposterous. I'm not saying you're one of these people (unless you are, if so, then lol), but everyone needs to acknowledge the flaws in their own belief systems. Believe me, I do.

 

Then again, I grew up around Baptists and not Catholics and Baptists tend to be a lot more uh...

"passionate"

in the worst possible ways.

 

I have (mostly) nothing but good things to say about the pope tho.

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

Allow me to rephrase that in a less inflammatory manner, then:

 

Both Islam and Christianity deserve the same level of respect and tolerance. Given their history, neither one has the moral high ground over the other.

Are you kidding me? One of those two still throws people like you off buildings or publicly stones our sort for entertainment

 

I'm not even christian, but this is just a stupid claim

[Sunshine Jesse]

Are you kidding me? One of those two still throws people like you off buildings or publicly stones our sort for entertainment

 

I'm not even christian, but this is just a stupid claim

I don't think bullying someone into suicide is much better than throwing people off of buildings but that's just my opinion I guess

[Ryusei the Morning Star]

I don't think bullying someone into suicide is much better than throwing people off of buildings but that's just my opinion I guess

Allow me to borrow a phrase from your kin... "check your privilege" 

[Sunshine Jesse]

People are getting tossed off buildings either way, the only difference is whether the person does it to themselves or an angry mob does it to them. "Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can make me think I deserve it" kind of deal. Words can be just as strong as actions, and the mind can't discern between emotional and physical pain anyways.

 

We're definitely getting off-topic though, there's just nothing else to discuss because this is an unambiguously good decision. It clears the air a bit and should make people feel just a bit more secure.

 

it doesn't tho because the anti-Trump hysteria is both kind of ridiculous and directed at all the wrong places

[VCR_CAT]

It's almost like there's bad people in every group and context and that ideologies don't really have much of a factor in how sucky people can be. It's almost like people was just use a set of beliefs and (usually) twist them to meet their MO and justify their actions.

 

Can we stop with the narrative that "X belief is evil because bad people do bad things under its flag"? News flash, humanity sucks. We've been doing sheet to each other for thousands of years in an ocean full of reasons and mindsets for why. Blaming a set belief system, outside of the extreme examples that will actively force people into doing things (cults) or blatantly promote criminal activity and you don't even need to twist its words to make it mean so (satanism), for the actions of a given people is just a short-sighted scapegoat, often to work with a person's own narrative on how they see the world.

 

People aren't inherently innocent until a given mindset "tells them to do otherwise". There are so many reasons that can lead to why a person or people act a certain way, and blaming it on one given thing is just short-sighted and offers nothing productive to the discussion.

 

Also, once again, unless you've actually taken the proper time to actually get to know what a given religion or set of beliefs is really all about (Lookin' at your sheet, Winter), keep your prejudice to yourself until you really know what you're talking about. Ancient religions aren't so simple that you can just get what it's all about with a few casual readings and cherry-picks of their religious text, or follow a media that often spins its own narrative and just jump to conclusions about something that millions of people follow. These old religious texts, especially if they're translated, don't give you a good enough picture at face-value today because of a huge gap formed by cultural, historical, and language barriers, not to mention what thousands of years of interpretations and study can do to change one's understanding of these texts. Don't pretend you know what you're talking about if you haven't taken the time to really get past these.

 

More on-topic, I can tell you that Christianity, as a belief system, doesn't actually support homophobia. A religion that's based upon a dude that hung out with a lot of societal rejects that the established religion was otherwise mistreating incredibly and even let a tax collector (essentially an ancient extortionist) into his group, contrary to what almost anyone would've done in that age, is actually very much about tolerance. The Christians that go blatant homophobe and discriminate others based on what they believe end up skewing and misinterpreting the ancient texts, whether they realize it or not, because that sort of thing happens.

 

Remember that it isn't really about just the religion, and scapegoating such one thing can often be as discriminating or prejudiced as the people you're speaking out against. 

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

More on-topic, I can tell you that Christianity, as a belief system, doesn't actually support homophobia. A religion that's based upon a dude that hung out with a lot of societal rejects that the established religion was otherwise mistreating incredibly and even let a tax collector (essentially an ancient extortionist) into his group, contrary to what almost anyone would've done in that age, is actually very much about tolerance. The Christians that go blatant homophobe and discriminate others based on what they believe end up skewing and misinterpreting the ancient texts, whether they realize it or not, because that sort of thing happens.

More more on it, what homophobic christians often use to justify their actions is a specific passage in Leviticus.

 

Leviticus is full of laws. Lots of em. I don't know most of them, to be totally honest.

 

What is important in the matter is that those laws also include tons of stuff that is both legal and socially acceptable (and should be, for that matter). An example of this is divorce for basically any reason other than marital unfaithfulness. Women who remarried were to be stoned.

 

The core belief of christianity, however, is the Jesus's sacrifice relieves us of the burden of sin, instating an infinitely more important law, to love those around us. Any discriminatory act is fundamentally unchristian.

 

The gist of this, is that horrible people use their religion as an excuse to be horrible, despite that not being the true meaning of the religion. Christian groups like Focus on the Family and Hobby Lobby spread hate and ignorance, while Islamic sects such as Daesh commit unspeakable acts of violence. Though one is more flashy and easier to say is the real problem, both are detriments to the world. Discounting one because of the other is foolish, especially considering that actions against either are not mutually exclusive by any means.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

News flash, humanity sucks. We've been doing sheet to each other for thousands of years in an ocean full of reasons and mindsets for why. 

 

Humanity's wonderful. We've been doing sheet to each other for thousands of years in an ocean full of reasons and mindsets for why.

 

Blaming a set belief system, outside of the extreme examples that will actively force people into doing things (cults) or blatantly promote criminal activity and you don't even need to twist its words to make it mean so (satanism), for the actions of a given people is just a short-sighted scapegoat, often to work with a person's own narrative on how they see the world.

 

With regards to Satanism, not necessarily.

[Dad]

Guys, stay on topic please.  You're reaching into another topic entirely at the moment.  It's great discussion.  But if you want to keep it going, use an appropriate thread or create one.

 

Not a warning, not a threat.  Just a comment.

[Tentacruel]

More more on it, what homophobic christians often use to justify their actions is a specific passage in Leviticus.

 

Leviticus is full of laws. Lots of em. I don't know most of them, to be totally honest.

 

What is important in the matter is that those laws also include tons of stuff that is both legal and socially acceptable (and should be, for that matter). An example of this is divorce for basically any reason other than marital unfaithfulness. Women who remarried were to be stoned.

Now, I support this sentiment, being a Christian who is not a fan of the homophobia that exists in America, but it is worth mentioning that the Bible's stance against homosexuality as a practice is repeated in the New Testament.  Not gonna turn that into some big discussion, but it's worth noting because a lot of people commonly point out the the Leviticus thing.  

 

OT:  Lgbt rights good.  Yay.  Trump not taking them away.  Tenta happy.