Revival Jam Retrain [written] [2 cards]

[Sleepy]

Clear Revival Jam
WATER Level 4 [ Aqua / Effect ] ATK/ 1500  DEF/ 500
If an Aqua or Divine Beast monster you control would be destroyed by battle, you can destroy this card instead. Also, gain LP equal to the battle damage you took. If this card is destroyed by battle or by its own effect: You can Special Summon it in Defense Position. 

Jam of Safe Return
[Continuous Spell]
There is no limit to your hand size while this card is on the field. Once per turn, if a monster is Special Summoned from your GY during the end of the damage step: Draw 1 card, and and if a "Revival Jam" monster is on your field or GY, draw 1 more card for each "Jam of Safe Return" in your GY. You can only control 1 "Jam of Safe Return".

- - - -

NOTES:
It is a retrain of the 5 card Slifer combo Marik pulled off in the manga: Revival Jam, Jam Defender, Card of Safe Return, Infinite Cards, Slifer the Sky Dragon. Of course, I didn't retrain Slifer here.....

-Essentially made Revival Jam + Jam Defender into 1 card that functions more like the anime/manga where it did not have a LP cost to revive, did not have a delayed revival, and protected your monsters even during your own turn (in the manga/anime it was used against attack-looking effects like Magic Cylinder or Slifer's second mouth, and it even protected Slifer from stamping with its own regular ATK vs Buster Blader after Lightforce Sword weakened it enough to die from it).
The battle damage protection is the way it is because battle damage happens before battle destruction so I couldn't make them the same effect, and if you block damage it HAS to die by its effect for you to reset that effect soooo use it as intended basically.

-The other card is Infinite Cards + Card of Safe Return in 1 card. Inifinite Cards has never been worth the slot just for that effect alone. Meanwhile, original Card of Safe Return is just worst than Pot of Greed in this day and age. I wanted a condition where it could unlock the anime/manga's "draw 3 cards" functionality, and hopefully the damage calc restruction makes it useless to most revival out there... the intention there is that monsters that revive during the window of battle destruction... Vampire's Curse, Twin Headed Behemoth, Aurora Wing, and Zombina are the only samples I can think of off the top of my head.

[Tinkerer]

Amusingly, I suppose you could pull off the Jam of Safe Return combo in a Yugi deck using Marshmacron to trigger the draws + act as Slifer fodder.

[Sleepy]

10 minutes ago, Tinkerer said:

Amusingly, I suppose you could pull off the Jam of Safe Return combo in a Yugi deck using Marshmacron to trigger the draws + act as Slifer fodder.

That actually sounds pretty good to multiply monsters, and a charm of the decks Yugi, Kaiba, and Marik were using during that arc is that if you look at either of them, they seem to have a plan to support their missing gods should they have obtained them. 

From Marshamallon to Marshmacarron is actually what gave me the idea that: Although the game seemed to deem Jam a bit broken with the anime effect, it is at the end of the day essentially the same thing as Marshmallon + Glasses in functionality, but a draw recharge effect would just need to work differently (Card of Safe Return did not age super well)... For now, I just went the "instant revive" route although I might still be a tiny bit wary of it xD

 

[Rayfield Lumina]

Clear Revival Jam

Welp, @Sleepy, we both know you have a better knowledge of the meta of what can be considered balanced or not, but I have to say, I believe this tremendous anti-destruction is way too strong. Let's look at it this way: Monsters that cannot be destroyed by battle are annoying, though pretty abundant, I concede. Now, this card essentially makes every monster you control impervious to battle destruction. It dies, it revives, it dies, it revives. 1 card, Level 4 to boot, so incredibly easy to summon and supported by a lot of stuff. With all honesty, I don't like that such generic card can confer this great protection to your entire critter field as long as it's there, even if it has the disadvantage of being vulnerable to stuff like a Solemn or a Bottomless everytime it bounces back from the GY, or that it can get rid of with effects. That's my main concern, which only gets a little if we take into consideration the damage nullity effect x_x. Ooof, I'm not saying the card is completely OP or anything, but again, it's simple presence confers such protection, I'm worried about, for instance, a combination with mons unaffected by card effects, or that can negate card effects a la Shi En.

Jam of Safe Return

Scary, but good and balanced. Very minor detail: The card says  "Draw 1 card, and and if a "Revival Jam". SO just strike down one of those cheeky conjunctions xD.

 

EDIT: I remembered something. In this part: 

Once per turn, if a monster is Special Summoned from your GY

I dunno but, perhaps you'd want to make it, if a monster(s)?

[Sleepy]

23 hours ago, Rayfield Lumina said:

Clear Revival Jam

Welp, @Sleepy, we both know you have a better knowledge of the meta of what can be considered balanced or not, but I have to say, I believe this tremendous anti-destruction is way too strong. Let's look at it this way: Monsters that cannot be destroyed by battle are annoying, though pretty abundant, I concede. Now, this card essentially makes every monster you control impervious to battle destruction. It dies, it revives, it dies, it revives. 1 card, Level 4 to boot, so incredibly easy to summon and supported by a lot of stuff. With all honesty, I don't like that such generic card can confer this great protection to your entire critter field as long as it's there, even if it has the disadvantage of being vulnerable to stuff like a Solemn or a Bottomless everytime it bounces back from the GY, or that it can get rid of with effects. That's my main concern, which only gets a little if we take into consideration the damage nullity effect x_x. Ooof, I'm not saying the card is completely OP or anything, but again, it's simple presence confers such protection, I'm worried about, for instance, a combination with mons unaffected by card effects, or that can negate card effects a la Shi En.

Jam of Safe Return

Scary, but good and balanced. Very minor detail: The card says  "Draw 1 card, and and if a "Revival Jam". SO just strike down one of those cheeky conjunctions xD.

 

EDIT: I remembered something. In this part: 

Once per turn, if a monster is Special Summoned from your GY

I dunno but, perhaps you'd want to make it, if a monster(s)?

I get what you are saying. This card itself being battle resilient isn't so much the issue as it is the fact it extends to the rest of your field 100% generic.
Maybe I could maybe restrict the blanket protection to something like Aqua monsters and Level 10 monsters so it can work with the flavor cards such as Jam tokens and Slifer. With that there's always a chance this would only need an extra DNA Surgery to work again, but that'd still be a bit of a drawback on its own. What do you think?

[Rayfield Lumina]

On 7/27/2021 at 10:05 PM, Sleepy said:

I get what you are saying. This card itself being battle resilient isn't so much the issue as it is the fact it extends to the rest of your field 100% generic.
Maybe I could maybe restrict the blanket protection to something like Aqua monsters and Level 10 monsters so it can work with the flavor cards such as Jam tokens and Slifer. With that there's always a chance this would only need an extra DNA Surgery to work again, but that'd still be a bit of a drawback on its own. What do you think?

Probably limiting the protection reach to Aqua monsters is a nice way to balance this. A relatively slow set-up with the Surgery combination should be costly enough within the speed of the current meta. For what you have told me, you're still not 100% satisfied with how the card is turning out so, beyond the Aqua limiting suggestion, which seems good enough, I'll give you a couple more options I thought of. Perhaps they aren't too good, but they might inspire you to find a better solution.

Add an LP Cost. Simplest and cheapest tactic to try n' balance something xD. Each time the Jam does its destruction substitution, you pay a set LP. This can be done n two ways. Either you pay LP to apply the substitution and send the Jam to the GY to be Summoned immediately after, or you pay LP to Special Summon the Jam. The LP cost might not even be set, but rather is dependant to the monster's Level/Rank or stats.

A risky method. Apply the current effect as usual, but add a clause. If the monster that was going to be destroyed (and was saved by the Jam) ends up being destroyed during that same turn (say, by card effect such as Raigeki), you take damage equal to the monster's ATK or DEF, or what's higher between ATK / DEF to make it riskier, for instance.

A screwing in the saved monster's capabilities. The Jam sacrifices itself for a mob, but that mob's ATK is halved or becomes 0, or its effects are negated, or cannot be used as material for X amount of time/permanently.

[Sleepy]

7 hours ago, Rayfield Lumina said:

Probably limiting the protection reach to Aqua monsters is a nice way to balance this. A relatively slow set-up with the Surgery combination should be costly enough within the speed of the current meta. For what you have told me, you're still not 100% satisfied with how the card is turning out so, beyond the Aqua limiting suggestion, which seems good enough, I'll give you a couple more options I thought of. Perhaps they aren't too good, but they might inspire you to find a better solution.

Add an LP Cost. Simplest and cheapest tactic to try n' balance something xD. Each time the Jam does its destruction substitution, you pay a set LP. This can be done n two ways. Either you pay LP to apply the substitution and send the Jam to the GY to be Summoned immediately after, or you pay LP to Special Summon the Jam. The LP cost might not even be set, but rather is dependant to the monster's Level/Rank or stats.

A risky method. Apply the current effect as usual, but add a clause. If the monster that was going to be destroyed (and was saved by the Jam) ends up being destroyed during that same turn (say, by card effect such as Raigeki), you take damage equal to the monster's ATK or DEF, or what's higher between ATK / DEF to make it riskier, for instance.

A screwing in the saved monster's capabilities. The Jam sacrifices itself for a mob, but that mob's ATK is halved or becomes 0, or its effects are negated, or cannot be used as material for X amount of time/permanently.

Well... the main intention of this card is to mimic the anime/manga usage of the combo. So Revival Jam unfairly shielding even stuff that isn't just opponent attack, reviving instantly, seemingly protecting from damage and destruction from it. Sooooo if I end up adding any costs of sorts, it'd have to be in a way that an additional effect of another part of this combo could offset/nullify it. Which would be interesting since the Jam itself would be more balanced for it but the overall combo would remain untouched. For that I think the LP cost idea is the mos appropriate for this, now the stuff I'll need to figure out is how I'll distribute these pieces to make it so.... 

Thanks a lot for the ideas btw, I know I might sound a bit unsatisfied but I am in reality intrigued by the suggestions.

[Darj]

Won't comment on the cards atm, I first want to know what exactly "if a monster is Special Summoned from your GY during damage calculation" means, or rather how it is intended to work, because IIRC a condition like this has no precedence. Most effects cannot activate during damage step, unless the text allows them, which is why damage-changing effects like Honest and Kalut are hard to respond to. So it is highly unlikely for a monster to be Special Summoned during a damage calculation, a timing that most Summoning effects don't meet, and heck, even specifically exclude them, for example the "(except during the damage step)" clause on effects like Artifact Labrys'.

[Sleepy]

1 hour ago, Darj said:

Won't comment on the cards atm, I first want to know what exactly "if a monster is Special Summoned from your GY during damage calculation" means, or rather how it is intended to work, because IIRC a condition like this has no precedence. Most effects cannot activate during damage step, unless the text allows them, which is why damage-changing effects like Honest and Kalut are hard to respond to. So it is highly unlikely for a monster to be Special Summoned during a damage calculation, a timing that most Summoning effects don't meet, and heck, even specifically exclude them, for example the "(except during the damage step)" clause on effects like Artifact Labrys'.

The fact most revival effects exclude that timing is EXACTLY why I chose it. It is a way to make it so that it works with my intended combo and with other few and far between cards that do exist in the game, but it is not abundant enough to cause problems like the original "Card of Safe Return" did. Come on man, I explained it in my Notes under the card and from your post I see you understood how the card worked. I think your question is less "what exactly x means" and more so "why make an effect I can take so little advantage of?". Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

The original Card of Safe Return was also created under the impression revival was extremely limited. Back then Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, and Call of the Haunted were the only 3 generic revives in the game, and 1 or 2 of them was always banned at any given time in the old days, with the rest always being limited. Revival Jam was made as the next big one, and I think even stuff like Vampire Lord and Behemoth came out later in the game's lifespan. It didn't age very well but the card was betting on its use being super situational.
My version once again taps into under-explored terrain (but not fully uncharted). I am thinking on expanding its range just a tiny bit so that it works with revives from either GY and makes the Goyo cards combo with it too.

As it stands, what works with it (listed again)
-Zombina
-Vampire Curse
-Aurora Wing
-Twin-Headed Behemoth
-Time Machine
-Marshmacaron

Hmmm probably "damage step" would work better than "damage calc" for the timing (essentially the same but damage calc is a sub-step of damage step which is wider so might be better).

[Darj]

9 minutes ago, Sleepy said:

The fact most revival effects exclude that timing is EXACTLY why I chose it. It is a way to make it so that it works with my intended combo and with other few and far between cards that do exist in the game, but it is not abundant enough to cause problems like the original "Card of Safe Return" did. Come on man, I explained it in my Notes under the card and from your post I see you understood how the card worked. I think your question is less "what exactly x means" and more so "why make an effect I can take so little advantage of?". Or at least that's how it sounds to me.

The original Card of Safe Return was also created under the impression revival was extremely limited. Back then Monster Reborn, Premature Burial, and Call of the Haunted were the only 3 generic revives in the game, and 1 or 2 of them was always banned at any given time in the old days, with the rest always being limited. Revival Jam was made as the next big one, and I think even stuff like Vampire Lord and Behemoth came out later in the game's lifespan. It didn't age very well but the card was betting on its use being super situational.
My version once again taps into under-explored terrain (but not fully uncharted). I am thinking on expanding its range just a tiny bit so that it works with revives from either GY and makes the Goyo cards combo with it too.

As it stands, what works with it (listed again)
-Zombina
-Vampire Curse
-Aurora Wing
-Twin-Headed Behemoth
-Time Machine
-Marshmacaron

Hmmm probably "damage step" would work better than "damage calc" for the timing (essentially the same but damage calc is a sub-step of damage step which is wider so might be better).

I meant that because of how damage step works and the rulings around it, monsters are not actually Special Summoned during the damage calculation of the damage step, but they do so during the end of the damage step. So, taking the text literally, this card cannot apply its effect, except on effects that specifically Special Summon on damage calculation, which AFAIK no such effects exist, and not even your Clear Revival Jam. Where I was going to was that the effect has to be re-written, but to re-write it properly I first wanted to have cleared up what the effect is intended to do and the importance or relevance of specifically Special Summoning within the damage step. But seems to me that all it takes is replacing "damage calculation" with "end of the damage step" or "after a damage step" and it should be good to go.

[Sleepy]

3 minutes ago, Darj said:

I meant that because of how damage step works and the rulings around it, monsters are not actually Special Summoned during the damage calculation of the damage step, but they do so during the end of the damage step. So, taking the text literally, this card cannot apply its effect, except on effects that specifically Special Summon on damage calculation, which AFAIK no such effects exist, and not even your Clear Revival Jam. Where I was going to was that the effect has to be re-written, but to re-write it properly I first wanted to have cleared up what the effect is intended to do and the importance or relevance of specifically Special Summoning within the damage step. But seems to me that all it takes is replacing "damage calculation" with "end of the damage step" or "after a damage step" and it should be good to go.

Oh that's what you meant. 
Alright, gonna change that up right now.
Any other thoughts on the cards now that the intended functionality has been cleared up? 

[Darj]

9 hours ago, Sleepy said:

Oh that's what you meant. 
Alright, gonna change that up right now.
Any other thoughts on the cards now that the intended functionality has been cleared up? 

Well, the Spell seems fine to me. I do have concerns on the monster because, as Rayfield explained, it's a "Spirit Reaper"-like monster 2.0 in that not only is indirectly protected from effect destruction, also it protects other monsters from battle. So even in top tier standards, I imagine this being tough to crack, despite the availability of non-destructive outs, and even D.D. Crow or Called by the Grave can snipe it while it's the GY. It's strange because it's not a case of "you better have an out or lose" since it's merely a defensive card that doesn't win games on its own (unless you are playing some kind of Chain Beat deck), so you can't exactly call it a problem or broken card, but at the same time it can be such an annoying card to play against. It reminds me of "Mystic Mine" but of course it is not nearly as strong.

It comes to my mind, how about being able to Special Summon it once per turn, as long as it reached the GY by battle destruction or by its own effect? That way it is not as annoying, and you get to bring it back every turn even if the destruction is not immediate.

That aside, further support or ties with Level 10 Aquas and/or Marik's slimes would be a welcomed flavorful note.

[Sleepy]

2 hours ago, Darj said:

Well, the Spell seems fine to me. I do have concerns on the monster because, as Rayfield explained, it's a "Spirit Reaper"-like monster 2.0 in that not only is indirectly protected from effect destruction, also it protects other monsters from battle. So even in top tier standards, I imagine this being tough to crack, despite the availability of non-destructive outs, and even D.D. Crow or Called by the Grave can snipe it while it's the GY. It's strange because it's not a case of "you better have an out or lose" since it's merely a defensive card that doesn't win games on its own (unless you are playing some kind of Chain Beat deck), so you can't exactly call it a problem or broken card, but at the same time it can be such an annoying card to play against. It reminds me of "Mystic Mine" but of course it is not nearly as strong.

It comes to my mind, how about being able to Special Summon it once per turn, as long as it reached the GY by battle destruction or by its own effect? That way it is not as annoying, and you get to bring it back every turn even if the destruction is not immediate.

That aside, further support or ties with Level 10 Aquas and/or Marik's slimes would be a welcomed flavorful note.

 

Thanks, from your post I finally have enough opinions to convince me to alter it. Edited so it only works with the Aqua stuff xP
Yeah it is more or less like Spirit Reaper enhanced. It also can be taken out via any kind of effect (it doesn't revive from effect destruction, just from its own effect's destruction).
Though Called by the Grave and D.D. Crow actually can't touch this card because it has damage step shenanigans in its revival.

[Darj]

1 hour ago, Sleepy said:

 

Thanks, from your post I finally have enough opinions to convince me to alter it. Edited so it only works with the Aqua stuff xP
Yeah it is more or less like Spirit Reaper enhanced. It also can be taken out via any kind of effect (it doesn't revive from effect destruction, just from its own effect's destruction).
Though Called by the Grave and D.D. Crow actually can't touch this card because it has damage step shenanigans in its revival.

Oh, damn right, it's not resilient to effect destruction. The changes still looks good though You could also include the Types of any other monsters Marik played, if any, I forget which monsters he uses.
Also double right with the fact that D.D. Crow, Called by Grave, etc. cannot respond to it since such "destroyed by battle" effects are still within the damage step.

[Sleepy]

Just now, Darj said:

Oh, damn right, it's not resilient to effect destruction. The changes still looks good though You could also include the Types of any other monsters Marik played, if any, I forget which monsters he uses.
Also double right with the fact that D.D. Crow, Called by Grave, etc. cannot respond to it since such "destroyed by battle" effects are still within the damage step.

Marik used primarily Fiends  (Dark Jeroid, Melchid/Tikki Elder/Masked Beast, Lava Golem, Juragedo, Byser Des/Byser Shock, Holding Legs/Holding Arms, Helpoemer, Newdoria, Gil Garth)
Though also in part WATER... usually Reptiles or Plants (Revival Jam, Slime Defender, Lord Poison, Lekunga, Granadora, Vampire Leech, Drake Worm).

I very much hate that Konami made a "Structure Deck Marik" for TCG and used none of these and just made a Gravekeeper's Deck (because in the anime/manga Marik was an Egyptian Gravekeeper, yet he never used any of that archetype stuff).

( /rant ) *cough...

Well despite the "only revives from battle related injuries" bit, I still agree with you it'd be an annoying effect to deal with xD