"God did not create the universe" - Stephen Hawking

[Luna Lovegood]

In my view, there was no such thing as god. Because if He created us, how come he hasent done anything about global warming or pullution?

 

Maybe he spends all of his time setting up Universes for fun....

[Tentacruel]

I respect your opinion(s), but that is by far the worst argument against theism.

[Dark]

I respect your opinion(s), but that is by far the worst argument against theism.

 

Not at all. Maybe you cannot legitimately use that argument to disprove god, but you can say that if a god exists, he is a serious ass and not worthy of worship. Which is the next best thing from not believing in a deity.

[Yasu]

Obviously a supreme being created us, set all the laws of physics and the universe, and just left us. So what some religious people are saying is, he basically ditched us and left us to die from pollution and overpopulation and nuclear war.

 

So he's a really big ass, pretty much. I think that is what people are trying to get at.

 

But isn't god omnipresent and omnipotent?

The thing he creates are perfect, fail proof, he's the embodiment of perfection after all.

...Or is it that we're not even part of god's priorities, thus making human lives pretty much worthless to him?

 

So in a way, wouldn't acknowledging the existence of a god be the same as stopping being so self-centered and starting to accept our true worth?

Now that's what I call humility.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Obviously a supreme being created us, set all the laws of physics and the universe, and just left us. So what some religious people are saying is, he basically ditched us and left us to die from pollution and overpopulation and nuclear war.

 

So he's a really big ass, pretty much. I think that is what people are trying to get at.

I'd blame it for issues not brought about by man. At any rate, if there's some sort of afterlife, I guess he wouldn't really be an asshat for letting us rot on Earth BUT WHO KNOWS.

 

 

But isn't god omnipresent and omnipotent?

The thing he creates are perfect, fail proof, he's the embodiment of perfection after all.

...Or is it that we're not even part of god's priorities, thus making human lives pretty much worthless to him?

 

So in a way, wouldn't acknowledging the existence of a god be the same as stopping being so self-centered and starting to accept our true worth?

Now that's what I call humility.

Except most religions revolve around God loving us with all his heart. :/

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Obviously a supreme being created us, set all the laws of physics and the universe, and just left us. So what some religious people are saying is, he basically ditched us and left us to die from pollution and overpopulation and nuclear war.

 

So he's a really big ass, pretty much. I think that is what people are trying to get at.

That's a very ignorant argument. I guess every time one of my "sim city" projects fails, i'm a really big ass. I don't believe in God, but if he created the universe I don't see one planet being a high priority at all.

[Guest]

If you're referring specifically to the god of Abraham, you don't need to look for Fridge Logic in the Watchmaker argument to prove that that god would be a git if he existed; just glance the Old Testament and witness how downright evil he is.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

It's relatively easy to disprove any god with specific claims associated with it. The only god that cannot be shown to be false (or at least, false to the same standard of anything else you'd call "proven false") would be one with such vague properties as to be meaningless.

[Dark]

That's a very ignorant argument. I guess every time one of my "sim city" projects fails, i'm a really big ass. I don't believe in God, but if he created the universe I don't see one planet being a high priority at all.

 

No, but many religions that have an omnipotent god say that he/she/it loves us with all of his/her/its heart. D'aww, how nice.

 

Only problem is that he created us, now there are problems, and he's going to absolutely ignore us? Surely he cannot spend all of his time on Earth (but most religions that have an omnipotent god dismiss the idea that other planets could possibly have life, meaning he should have even more time to spend with us), but it'd be nice if he at least got rid of all the infidels or gave us some more food from the sky. Y'know, ease some of our troubles.

 

Essentially, he created us, knowing (since he's omniscient) that we'd make problems for ourself (and he willingly did not make us perfect do-good beings), and left us to suffer. So if he does exist, he's an ass.

 

And sure, if your SIM City people actually existed, they'd think of you as a really big ass because you created them, knowing problems would eventually occur, and then sat back and watched, not even attempting to help anyone or anything in your failed project. Yeah, in their eyes, you're an ass.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

No, but many religions that have an omnipotent god say that he/she/it loves us with all of his/her/its heart. D'aww, how nice.

 

Only problem is that he created us, now there are problems, and he's going to absolutely ignore us? Surely he cannot spend all of his time on Earth (but most religions that have an omnipotent god dismiss the idea that other planets could possibly have life, meaning he should have even more time to spend with us), but it'd be nice if he at least got rid of all the infidels or gave us some more food from the sky. Y'know, ease some of our troubles.

 

Essentially, he created us, knowing (since he's omniscient) that we'd make problems for ourself (and he willingly did not make us perfect do-good beings), and left us to suffer. So if he does exist, he's an ass.

 

And sure, if your SIM City people actually existed, they'd think of you as a really big ass because you created them, knowing problems would eventually occur, and then sat back and watched, not even attempting to help anyone or anything in your failed project. Yeah, in their eyes, you're an ass.

Many religions do feature an all-benevolent god. But its not a prerequisite by any means.

 

Based on that concept you could say that nobody should ever do medical research... because at some point, you need to leave the subjects alone to see what things result. Interfering hurts the integrity of the results, and if god created the universe i'd imagine he'd be interested in how things would naturally turn out. If god created the universe, assuming he did so with the specific intention of earth having significance seems very arrogant and self-centered.

 

That assumes that god knows the future, which is not a prerequisite for god.

 

The sim city people do exist, as pixels/electrical signals, whatever. They may not exist in the same sense that I do, but humans also don't exist in the same sense god would.

[Dark]

If we are talking about a god with no attributes, as you said yourself, while it cannot be proven as not existing, having it exist changes nothing and is worthless.

 

Your analogy is bad; god is willingly putting billions of people's lives at risk, and is doing nothing about it. If the god in question is not omnibenevolent, why worship him? If he is... well, I've proven already that he isn't.

 

Do SIM City people have any feelings? Any nonpredispositioned thoughts about their creator?

 

Oh, but I forgot: we are living in the matrix and our thoughts are being controlled. It seems my analogy was quite bad, as well.

 

 

[I-dreezyAFG]

if nature created everything ele who created nature? HA!

now, in te quran, it says the seven heavns seven times.

another thing, in islam, prophet muhammud was the last prophet. and god revealed the quran to him. now, if athiesm was true, we would'nt know muhammud and the quran would never have been made.

its easy. *snort* any pactising muslim would know it's logic.[/hornysecratary]

[Dark]

...nature isn't a thing that can be created. Nature is a term we give to the natural state of the universe (or on a smaller scale, Earth). It just exists.

 

The Koran, along with the Bible and the Torah, are man-written books. Muhammad was some dude who deviated from Judaism to make Islam, much like Jesus deviated from Judaism to make Christianity, but it has not yet been proven (nor will it) that either of these men were sanely influenced by a supreme being. They can claim that to bolster their religious beliefs, but it isn't true.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

If we are talking about a god with no attributes, as you said yourself, while it cannot be proven as not existing, having it exist changes nothing and is worthless.

 

Your analogy is bad; god is willingly putting billions of people's lives at risk, and is doing nothing about it. If the god in question is not omnibenevolent, why worship him? If he is... well, I've proven already that he isn't.

 

Do SIM City people have any feelings? Any nonpredispositioned thoughts about their creator?

 

Oh, but I forgot: we are living in the matrix and our thoughts are being controlled. It seems my analogy was quite bad, as well.

I'm not the one who claimed that the existence of suffering disproved god. It may disprove an all-benevolent god, but these are not equivilant statements.

[Dark]

I'm not the one who claimed that the existence of suffering disproved god. It may disprove an all-benevolent god, but these are not equivilant statements.

 

So what are you saying I can't disprove?

 

Are you saying I cannot disprove a non-benevolent god who is not worthy of worship? Well, unless you tie him to a religion, I have no material to disprove him/her/it with.

 

Are you saying I cannot disprove a non-benevolt god who really has no attributes whatsoever outside of the creator of the universe? It is pointless for such a god to exist and it doesn't change anything, so there is no reason to disprove it (nor is it possible).

[GenzoTheHarpist]

You made the claim that you had disproved that "God" existed. Its come clear in this discussion you were actually referring, basically, to only the god of Christianity. A quite more limited thing to do.

[Guest]

If my Sim City crumbles to dust, it's because my management of the city was unable to cope with the rules and laws imposed by the game's creators; if there are no such external restraints on my abilities, I cannot lose unless I want to lose.

[I-dreezyAFG]

...nature isn't a thing that can be created. Nature is a term we give to the natural state of the universe (or on a smaller scale, Earth). It just exists.

 

The Koran, along with the Bible and the Torah, are man-written books. Muhammad was some dude who deviated from Judaism to make Islam, much like Jesus deviated from Judaism to make Christianity, but it has not yet been proven (nor will it) that either of these men were sanely influenced by a supreme being. They can claim that to bolster their religious beliefs, but it isn't true.

 

then wht dude created judaism!? HA!

plus, how could the universe be created frm nothing? it all has to start somewhere, and it all starts with god creating the universe. and, muhammud was illiterate. he coul not read or write.

[Dark]

You made the claim that you had disproved that "God" existed. Its come clear in this discussion you were actually referring, basically, to only the god of Christianity. A quite more limited thing to do.

 

I've also disproven the gods of Judaism and Islam, in the same vein. So, effectively, I've disproved well over 75% of the world on their religious beliefs. Every other religion is either a minor religion which would take much more studying to actually find something to disprove their gods with (and trust me, every god CAN be disproven), or they have a god that has no attributes to disprove the god with (meaning just a random-ass god who created the universe and no one ever heard of him ever again and he doesn't affect us and he really doesn't care he effectively died and run-on sentences are fun). So I'm confused as to the point you are trying to make against me right now. Have I done something wrong? Would you like me to disprove every god that has ever existed in the entire span of written history?

 

then wht dude created judaism!? HA!

plus, how could the universe be created frm nothing? it all has to start somewhere, and it all starts with god creating the universe. and, muhammud was illiterate. he coul not read or write.

 

I don't really care who created Judaism, but there is probably an answer to that. Some bored monk who wanted to instill fear in his people, so he created a long book with a supreme being that scared everyone into doing the right thing.

 

How could god(s) be created from nothing? If a god has the property of existing without the universe being formed, how can you disprove that other items cannot exist without the universe being formed? Oh, it's because god is special. Of course, that must be it! Even though special is very ambiguous.

 

Yes, if god created the universe, who created god. Or is he the "creator without creation"? If he is, can you prove that he has attributes to exist without being created, and furthermore, can you prove anything substantial about the religion you believe in? And if you turn to your religious book as proof, you are an ignorant moron.

 

Did Muhammad write the Koran? If he did, he most obviously was not illiterate. If he did not, that answers your point entirely. One can easily claim to be illiterate and use the facade of "GOD GAVE ME THIS AND I WROTE IT DOWN BUT IDK HOW TO BUT IT'S MAGICAL" to prove a point, since no one is going to believe a religion if you just "happened" to write it down. You had to "happen" to write it down under the constraint of a revelation or some act of god.

[Guest JoshIcy]

Just bumping in... Dark, most religions were purely stories for hundreds of years before being printed in some form. Where the main viewpoints are kept and not changed, the rest are skewed naturally overtime (hence the 10-20 commandments etc). Meaning whoever created Judaism, was either telling a story or genuinely believed it. Same for Hinduism and Islam.

 

It's not fear, nor was the original purpose control. It just evolved to that over time. =/... Kay, go about your business.

[Dark]

Just bumping in... Dark, most religions were purely stories for hundreds of years before being printed in some form. Where the main viewpoints are kept and not changed, the rest are skewed naturally overtime (hence the 10-20 commandments etc). Meaning whoever created Judaism, was either telling a story or genuinely believed it. Same for Hinduism and Islam.

 

It's not fear, nor was the original purpose control. It just evolved to that over time. =/... Kay, go about your business.

 

I apologize for implying that religion was created to control; rather, a supreme being was created to control (and to explain scientific facts that were unexplainable at the time, like earthquakes and lightning).

 

Religions are a collection of stories explaining god(s) and these myths attached to god(s), nothing more. I don't believe people created religions because they genuinely believed it, although no tangible proof exists for either side. I feel as if people created religions to explain phenomena that was unexplainable at the time, and gods are then created to explain that phenomena in a simpler way, but also to instill fear in people through heaven and hell.

 

Either way, we cannot blindly believe that people created religions because they genuinely believed in them; they could have just been really good trolls.

[Tentacruel]

This thread is pointless. No matter what is said here, no one is going to stop/start being an atheist/theist/agnostic. The only thing this thread will accomplish is pissing everyone off.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

This thread is pointless. No matter what is said here, no one is going to stop/start being an atheist/theist/agnostic. The only thing this thread will accomplish is pissing everyone off.

Hate to break it to you, but its very unlikely for people to change their mind on any non-trivial viewpoint as the result of debate. People have the tendency to ignore things that contradict them.

[Dark]

And I don't believe anyone is trying to make religious folk atheists; I, for one, am not.

 

But what is the point of having any debate, then, if people refuse to change their minds? Could it not be possible that, gasp, we debate to have fun and to trade intellectual knowledge? Is it not possible that we don't debate to change other peoples' viewpoints?!

[Dad]

In my view, there was no such thing as god. Because if He created us, how come he hasent done anything about global warming or pullution?

 

 

Obviously a supreme being created us, set all the laws of physics and the universe, and just left us. So what some religious people are saying is, he basically ditched us and left us to die from pollution and overpopulation and nuclear war.

 

So he's a really big ass, pretty much. I think that is what people are trying to get at.

 

You're suggesting that every time my child fucks up, I'm supposed to hold his hand and make everything better. But he won't learn a damn thing that way.

 

Oh, and just so you know, God really could care less, as you've so cleverly implied. Because after so long, you get sick and tired of putting up with your failed creations. You fix mistake after mistake, but what happens? They turn around and f*** up again. So is the nature of humanity? Ain't that how nature works? Sooner or later, ya gotta let 'em learn from their mistakes on their own. New Testament.