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"God did not create the universe" - Stephen Hawking


Catterjune

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There is a difference between extremist and religious, of course. But these people who I denote extremist, them being the people who force beliefs unto others and claim their beliefs to be sole truths, society views them as simply religious. Not crazy, not delusional, not stupid. Just normal.

So in other words, you're only a normal religious person if you don't really believe in the religion you follow. By your definition, you're an atheist extremist.

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I'm not saying you shouldn't believe it. Hell, if you don't believe it, you shouldn't be considered religious.

 

You shouldn't claim anything to be true with certainty, nor should you attempt to force anyone else (including your children) to convert to whatever bullshit you believe in. That is what I hold as a normal religious person. Society views that as... a freak. Not atheist, not "religious", just a freak.

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Non-forceful preaching and giving the option to you children to follow their "bullshit" as you so put it is far more common than the aggressive approach you talk about, but I don't think you're going to get this so easily.

 

I've been raised in a society (and generally a country, to be quite frank) where forcing your child into a religion and claiming beliefs to be absolutely truthful was considered normal and preachers were revered.

 

Excuse me if there are other places I do not know about where people actually act normally.

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There's a difference between being an extremist and being religious. Like sanity and insanity. Of course, to those who are atheist or agnostic, it's insanity either way. But you know what I mean. And those Christians you know are ignorant.

 

Oh, and lolCrab.

It has nothing to do with being extremist. Just because someone doesn't tie you to a bed doesn't mean they aren't forcing you to convert.

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Yeah, I hail from the race of unicorn-space-aliens that come from Planet Nubon, some three thousand light years away from Earth. I was teleported here in an experiement that went horribly wrong. The society of Nubans always thought that forcing your child to follow your beliefs was a-okay. BUT SURELY THIS DOES NOT RELATE TO MANY RELIGIOUS PARENTS TODAY!

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Yeah, I hail from the race of unicorn-space-aliens that come from Planet Nubon, some three thousand light years away from Earth. I was teleported here in an experiement that went horribly wrong. The society of Nubans always thought that forcing your child to follow your beliefs was a-okay. BUT SURELY THIS DOES NOT RELATE TO MANY RELIGIOUS PARENTS TODAY!

 

 

Many=/=All

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Guest JoshIcy

I've been raised in a society (and generally a country, to be quite frank) where forcing your child into a religion and claiming beliefs to be absolutely truthful was considered normal and preachers were revered.

 

Excuse me if there are other places I do not know about where people actually act normally.

 

Again, where YOU grew up is not where everyone else grew up.

I'm going to assume that most of you guys are from the US, so that could explain the number of stupid posts, Atheist or not. Deal with it, the US is not the entire world and not everything that happens there is the measure of what happens anywhere else. In my history of religions courses we have an entire seminar about the religious situation in the US which means that it's indeed special.:/

 

Somehow I was born into a ridiculous environment as well, at least in my country, not in the small place I grew up.

I'm from the countryside and there, being religious wasn't the only right thing to do or a "must", it was more of a social thing. Like, that church being a part of the village and if you want to go there, you go there to meet people, but after a certain age, or before a certain age, most people stop going there. And there are these village feasts near the church which are fun but I can't remember anyone trying to shove beliefs down my throat.

But generally in Luxembourg (yes it's a country), things are similarly retarded, I have the feeling that the more you move towards the city, the more black-and-white the people become. It's all about...either you're an ultra-conservative ridiculous preacher Christian like in the picture books (moving past cliches is not allowed right?<_<) or if you start questioning something a little bit, you MUST be an Atheist. I heard that this kind of attitude is common in the countries where a state church or official taxation is still there like Switzerland.

And despite this country being so black-and-white thinking on both sides, and despite my parents being Christian and having different beliefs on everything (no personal religious beliefs are the same as someone else's), I found my way and I'm not even an Atheist. Oh and wait even managed to turn away from the christocentricism, at least as much as I can. Most Atheist sermons are ridiculously christocentric after all, you people don't even notice it but on the other side it's a little understandable, starting from where you live and all.

 

Eh... I'd like to take part into the original debate but where to start? All the latest posts turned into the usual religion talk.=/

 

 

Dark: So you mean that in your surroundings, the kinds of people most of us view as extremist are viewed as normal, but the ones who don't claim to know the universal truth and don't try to shove it down everyone's throat are viewed as freaks?

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Many=/=All

 

May I ask where I have ever said "all". I know I'm smart enough not to make a generalization about all religious parents. I often use most or many in a debate, but never all, because that can actually be proven incorrect. Many is very subjective, which is the entire point of using it. 15% of people may seem like many while it isn't a majority, but 80% may also seem like many.

 

Again, where YOU grew up is not where everyone else grew up.

I'm going to assume that most of you guys are from the US, so that could explain the number of stupid posts, Atheist or not. Deal with it, the US is not the entire world and not everything that happens there is the measure of what happens anywhere else. In my history of religions courses we have an entire seminar about the religious situation in the US which means that it's indeed special.:/

 

Somehow I was born into a ridiculous environment as well, at least in my country, not in the small place I grew up.

I'm from the countryside and there, being religious wasn't the only right thing to do or a "must", it was more of a social thing. Like, that church being a part of the village and if you want to go there, you go there to meet people, but after a certain age, or before a certain age, most people stop going there. And there are these village feasts near the church which are fun but I can't remember anyone trying to shove beliefs down my throat.

But generally in Luxembourg (yes it's a country), things are similarly retarded, I have the feeling that the more you move towards the city, the more black-and-white the people become. It's all about...either you're an ultra-conservative ridiculous preacher Christian like in the picture books (moving past cliches is not allowed right?) or if you start questioning something a little bit, you MUST be an Atheist. I heard that this kind of attitude is common in the countries where a state church or official taxation is still there like Switzerland.

And despite this country being so black-and-white thinking on both sides, and despite my parents being Christian and having different beliefs on everything (no personal religious beliefs are the same as someone else's), I found my way and I'm not even an Atheist. Oh and wait even managed to turn away from the christocentricism, at least as much as I can. Most Atheist sermons are ridiculously christocentric after all, you people don't even notice it but on the other side it's a little understandable, starting from where you live and all.

 

Eh... I'd like to take part into the original debate but where to start? All the latest posts turned into the usual religion talk.=/

 

 

Dark: So you mean that in your surroundings, the kinds of people most of us view as extremist are viewed as normal, but the ones who don't claim to know the universal truth and don't try to shove it down everyone's throat are viewed as freaks?

 

I'm not saying it reflects the entire world, and I even apologized that I did not know about other places where people act normally.

 

Yes, people like preists and religious parents who force their children to convert are viewed as normal (where I live, and everywhere I've been throughout my life), while people who claim to know no absolute truth and give their children "freedom" are viewed as anti-religious freaks.

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May I ask where I have ever said "all". I know I'm smart enough not to make a generalization about all religious parents. I often use most or many in a debate, but never all, because that can actually be proven incorrect. Many is very subjective, which is the entire point of using it. 15% of people may seem like many while it isn't a majority, but 80% may also seem like many.

 

 

 

I'm not saying it reflects the entire world, and I even apologized that I did not know about other places where people act normally.

 

Yes, people like preists and religious parents who force their children to convert are viewed as normal (where I live, and everywhere I've been throughout my life), while people who claim to know no absolute truth and give their children "freedom" are viewed as anti-religious freaks.

 

How do you think we feel, being referred to as religious freaks?

 

But to be honest, to be anti-religious freak? That makes little to no sense. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying the way people judge is over the top and ridiculous.

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Again, where YOU grew up is not where everyone else grew up.

see guys at least someone isnt generali--

 

I'm going to assume that most of you guys are from the US, so that could explain the number of stupid posts

oh god dammit people

 

Everyone seems to have stereotypes or illogical assumptions, and it's kind of annoying. I myself have a few, but at least I try and clear my thoughts of the irrational generalizations I make.

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How do you think we feel, being referred to as religious freaks?

Great Lords of Kobol, what part of "WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EXTREMISTS NOT ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE" isn't getting through to you?

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Great Lords of Kobol, what part of "WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EXTREMISTS NOT ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE" isn't getting through to you?

 

"But these people who I denote extremist, them being the people who force beliefs unto others and claim their beliefs to be sole truths, society views them as simply religious."

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My problem is that your definition of extremist is very loose. Not so much the "force" part, but the part about believing your views to be the truth. If you didn't believe your own views to be the truth, then do really believe it at all?

 

That's a matter of opinion. Your beliefs can be loosely based, and you can have faith in them, but not denote them to be absolute truth.

 

The key word is "force". Try again.

 

Our views on "force" are obviously very different.

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You can claim privately that your beliefs are sole truths; no one cares if you lie to yourself in private. But in a public setting when other people are around, you should never claim your beliefs to be sole truths, as that causes a bunch of conflict with people who have other religions who believe their beliefs to be sole truths. So either believe in private, or believe loosely in public and shut the hell up. If you are dumb enough to claim something that is quite actually an opinion (with no factual anything behind anything) to be a sole truth (or any truth), you should be put with the dumb extremists.

 

And would you care to elaborate on "force", then? I thought the term "forcing someone to convert" or "forcing someone into a religion" seemed obvious enough, but obviously there are multiple views on what "force" is. <___<

 

 

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You can claim privately that your beliefs are sole truths; no one cares if you lie to yourself in private. But in a public setting when other people are around, you should never claim your beliefs to be sole truths, as that causes a bunch of conflict with people who have other religions who believe their beliefs to be sole truths. So either believe in private, or believe loosely in public and shut the hell up. If you are dumb enough to claim something that is quite actually an opinion (with no factual anything behind anything) to be a sole truth (or any truth), you should be put with the dumb extremists.

 

And would you care to elaborate on "force", then? I thought the term "forcing someone to convert" or "forcing someone into a religion" seemed obvious enough, but obviously there are multiple views on what "force" is. <___<

 

To be honest, the way I see it, you can't be FORCED to do anything. Unless they can speak for you, control your limbs, muscles, and brain activity, they can't force you to do anything. You can be persuaded, even if threateningly, but you can't be forced.

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I'm not saying it reflects the entire world, and I even apologized that I did not know about other places where people act normally.

 

Yes, people like preists and religious parents who force their children to convert are viewed as normal (where I live, and everywhere I've been throughout my life), while people who claim to know no absolute truth and give their children "freedom" are viewed as anti-religious freaks.

 

Well then that's a pretty f***ed up place you live in.=/

But my problem is really that in most of your posts, you do rely on your pretty f***ed up place and seem to apply it to anything else. But meh, since you realized it yourself I guess there will be less posts turned that way.=/

 

see guys at least someone isnt generali--

 

 

oh god dammit people

 

Everyone seems to have stereotypes or illogical assumptions, and it's kind of annoying. I myself have a few, but at least I try and clear my thoughts of the irrational generalizations I make.

 

'right I apologize about that, like many people in the world I do have illogical assumptions about the US but never had the chance or money to clear that up and go there, but I will do it when I get the chance. Until then I'll try to make my picture based on impressions, and those impressions come mostly from what I read about the US, the fact of having a Bible Belt movement and creationism being taught at school, the fact of having mostly 2 big parties that divide people up and also seem to divide people in terms of sides on religious debates...a similar duality as in Luxembourg and I don't like that. The idea of going either conservative Christian or Atheist democrat and nothing inbetween.

But on the other side I know that not everyone thinks that way of course and then there's the big variety of religions in the US. I read about the tons of Pagan communities, Hermetic and Gnostic orders there and the Church of Satan that is quite big too.

 

So I have divided opinions on this but until I can go and prove it to myself, I'll stay on my impressions that the US is similar to the countries with state churches in Europe (for reasons I mentioned before) and that there's mostly a conservative picture-book Christian vs Atheist attitude, "be really religious or go home" kind of thing, at least in people's minds. So Atheists might think they're the biggest, most progressive and very first freethinkers in the world. But it's not people's fault, I guess it's mainly because certain sides are being very loud about their stance.

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To be honest, the way I see it, you can't be FORCED to do anything. Unless they can speak for you, control your limbs, muscles, and brain activity, they can't force you to do anything. You can be persuaded, even if threateningly, but you can't be forced.

And therefore absolutely every form of coercion is perfectly acceptable in all situations. Splendid!

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