"God did not create the universe" - Stephen Hawking

[GenzoTheHarpist]

But God designed humans so he allowed them to be that flawed to begin with. If I could control every aspect of my children, i'd make it so they never f***ed up to begin with.

[Dark]

If he's an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being as the Bible (and the Torah and the Koran) depicts, as Genzo perfectly said, he should have had the sense (and he most obviously has the ability) to make every human being perfect.

 

If he created the universe, he must have created Satan, or pretty much anything evil or bad. Since he knows the future, he knows we were going to turn out flawed and some of us would turn out to be pedophiles. Yet he still makes us, and yet he still expects us to worship him.

 

 

[Dad]

If he's an omnibenevolent, omnipotent being as the Bible (and the Torah and the Koran) depicts, as Genzo perfectly said, he should have had the sense (and he most obviously has the ability) to make every human being perfect.

 

If he created the universe, he must have created Satan, or pretty much anything evil or bad. Since he knows the future, he knows we were going to turn out flawed and some of us would turn out to be pedophiles. Yet he still makes us, and yet he still expects us to worship him.

 

 

Yeah, the big guy did create Satan, in a way. From what my belief teaches me, it started with Satan being the angel Lucifer, the most beautiful angel in heaven. He got greedy for God's power and God punished him by creating hell and sending Lucifer there for eternity. Thus he became Satan. No, my belief has no logic behind it, but it gives me something to look forward to. Everybody who wants to disprove my belief wants everything they've been told to be exactly as they depict it. But I can betcha, if you attended a single, hour service at my church, you'd never look at Christianity again the same way. And it's not about having a religion or faith, not for me anyway. For me, it's about a personal relationship with the man I call my Lord and Savior.

[Dark]

...something to look forward to? Meaning heaven, right? Then there is the problem of, if people do not believe in your savior or god, they won't be going to heaven (at the very least, 99% of religions do require a belief in their god(s) as a prerequisite for going to heaven). How do you feel about your friends and family of another religion who are undoubtedly going to hell?

 

Also, while you didn't state this, many pull the argument that religion keeps people in their place and prevents them from doing crime. Two things: one, atheists are less likely to be in jail or convincted of a crime than religious people are. Two, atheists believe that there is only one life, no afterlife, and to enjoy this life to the fullest, spending time in jail is an utter waste of time. Whereas religious people may commit a crime, go to jail, and expect it to land them in heaven (jihad or crusades or whatever).

[Dr. Cakey]

Yeah, the big guy did create Satan, in a way. From what my belief teaches me, it started with Satan being the angel Lucifer, the most beautiful angel in heaven. He got greedy for God's power and God punished him by creating hell and sending Lucifer there for eternity. Thus he became Satan. No, my belief has no logic behind it, but it gives me something to look forward to. Everybody who wants to disprove my belief wants everything they've been told to be exactly as they depict it. But I can betcha, if you attended a single, hour service at my church, you'd never look at Christianity again the same way. And it's not about having a religion or faith, not for me anyway. For me, it's about a personal relationship with the man I call my Lord and Savior.

Well, we have several problems here. First, God was apparently not very good at this whole "creation" business, as he created the ultimate expression of evil and thought it was his most beautiful creation. Second, He appears to not be very good at this whole benevolence business, either, as He decided that instead of trying to understand why Satan became greedy and/or correcting his behavior, He consigned him to the fiery pit of EPICZ TORMENT. Third, your belief does indeed have no logic to it. By your rationalization of non-logic, does that mean that Pastafarianism is equally valid? Fourth, I can betcha you're wrong - I've attended church for plenty of years, been educated in Old Testament, Christ and the Sacraments, and Doctrine classes, the second taught by a superior version of Chuck Norris, and that simply puts me in the unique position of being much better at quantifying my position. Fifth and last, your Lord and Savior never gave me a million dollars. I'd take that for a good, solid, personal relationship.

 

(And what Dark said)

[Dark]

Fifth and last, your Lord and Savior never gave me a million dollars. I'd take that for a good, solid, personal relationship.

 

I agree: if a million dollars were to fall from the sky, hit me in the head with such force that I should have been dead but was still alive, I would believe in any and every god.

 

Sadly... that hasn't happened- yet.

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Why would what happens on Earth matter so much if there were an eternal afterlife?

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Yeah, the big guy did create Satan, in a way. From what my belief teaches me, it started with Satan being the angel Lucifer, the most beautiful angel in heaven. He got greedy for God's power and God punished him by creating hell and sending Lucifer there for eternity. Thus he became Satan. No, my belief has no logic behind it, but it gives me something to look forward to. Everybody who wants to disprove my belief wants everything they've been told to be exactly as they depict it. But I can betcha, if you attended a single, hour service at my church, you'd never look at Christianity again the same way. And it's not about having a religion or faith, not for me anyway. For me, it's about a personal relationship with the man I call my Lord and Savior.

So god created Satan as a greedy being, and then punished him for it? That's like telling your kid to steal your car, and then beating him up for it. Except worse because the punishment is infinite.

 

If your belief has no logic behind it then... well, making decisions based on it is the absolute height of fallacy. Believing in something just because its comforting is to literally close your ears to reality and take refuge in ignorance.

 

I seriously doubt that. I've heard plenty of services and either didn't think much, or completely disagreed. I doubt your church is a "super church" that is totally different from any other christian church at all.

 

If you have a personal relationship with someone you admit to have no logic to believe in, that's called hallucinating.

[Dad]

So god created Satan as a greedy being, and then punished him for it? That's like telling your kid to steal your car, and then beating him up for it. Except worse because the punishment is infinite.

 

If your belief has no logic behind it then... well, making decisions based on it is the absolute height of fallacy. Believing in something just because its comforting is to literally close your ears to reality and take refuge in ignorance.

 

I seriously doubt that. I've heard plenty of services and either didn't think much, or completely disagreed. I doubt your church is a "super church" that is totally different from any other christian church at all.

 

If you have a personal relationship with someone you admit to have no logic to believe in, that's called hallucinating.

 

Hey, don't put words in my mouth. He gave Lucifer beauty, but He gave him responsibility. God didn't give him greed. And I said it would be a good service, I didn't say it was life changing. An atheist friend of mine (yes, I'm serious) came with me to a service once. No, he didn't change his beliefs, but he at least looked me in the face and told me "you aigh't lil' jabroni. I think I get what you got goin on here." In those exact words.

 

...something to look forward to? Meaning heaven, right? Then there is the problem of, if people do not believe in your savior or god, they won't be going to heaven (at the very least, 99% of religions do require a belief in their god(s) as a prerequisite for going to heaven). How do you feel about your friends and family of another religion who are undoubtedly going to hell?

 

Also, while you didn't state this, many pull the argument that religion keeps people in their place and prevents them from doing crime. Two things: one, atheists are less likely to be in jail or convincted of a crime than religious people are. Two, atheists believe that there is only one life, no afterlife, and to enjoy this life to the fullest, spending time in jail is an utter waste of time. Whereas religious people may commit a crime, go to jail, and expect it to land them in heaven (jihad or crusades or whatever).

 

 

Paragraph 1: I can't change my family and friends, I can only do what I believe is right. I can pray and hope for the best for them. Nothing more.

 

Paragraph 2: I whole-heartedly agree with you. But there's a difference between me, and religious nutjob. God never told us we would be perfect. That's why we believe He gave us free will. And to answer any future questions, we beliueve this is to determine who we follow. But no, I don't think being religious prevents you from being punished. That's stupid.

 

Well, we have several problems here. First, God was apparently not very good at this whole "creation" business, as he created the ultimate expression of evil and thought it was his most beautiful creation. Second, He appears to not be very good at this whole benevolence business, either, as He decided that instead of trying to understand why Satan became greedy and/or correcting his behavior, He consigned him to the fiery pit of EPICZ TORMENT. Third, your belief does indeed have no logic to it. By your rationalization of non-logic, does that mean that Pastafarianism is equally valid? Fourth, I can betcha you're wrong - I've attended church for plenty of years, been educated in Old Testament, Christ and the Sacraments, and Doctrine classes, the second taught by a superior version of Chuck Norris, and that simply puts me in the unique position of being much better at quantifying my position. Fifth and last, your Lord and Savior never gave me a million dollars. I'd take that for a good, solid, personal relationship.

 

(And what Dark said)

 

 

Well, hey, that's on you. Again, I'm not here to change your personal beliefs. That's rude in my opinion (no disrespect). You believe what you believe. I'm just gonna wait for what I believe in. Ya dig? No amount of degrees or certifications will change my heart.

[Guest]

The whole "create-someone-evil-then-punish-the-for-being-evil" thing happens all the time in the Bible. Without Judas and the crucifixion, you don't have Jesus dying for our sins and all the good stuff that requires that, but Judas and Pilate are still treated as villains despite being absolutely necessary for God's Divine Plan^TM and the salvation of everyone.

 

Though the Bible itself is more ambiguous on the subject, Milton's Paradise Lost even depicts the original fall in Eden as being this - God deliberately sets up Adam and Eve to eat the fruit and be booted out of the garden, and goes out of his way to make sure their transgression is as inexcusable as possible.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

Hey, don't put words in my mouth. He gave Lucifer beauty, but He gave him responsibility. God didn't give him greed. And I said it would be a good service, I didn't say it was life changing. An atheist friend of mine (yes, I'm serious) came with me to a service once. No, he didn't change his beliefs, but he at least looked me in the face and told me "you aigh't lil' jabroni. I think I get what you got goin on here." In those exact words.

 

Paragraph 1: I can't change my family and friends, I can only do what I believe is right. I can pray and hope for the best for them. Nothing more.

 

Paragraph 2: I whole-heartedly agree with you. But there's a difference between me, and religious nutjob. God never told us we would be perfect. That's why we believe He gave us free will. And to answer any future questions, we beliueve this is to determine who we follow. But no, I don't think being religious prevents you from being punished. That's stupid.

 

Well, hey, that's on you. Again, I'm not here to change your personal beliefs. That's rude in my opinion (no disrespect). You believe what you believe. I'm just gonna wait for what I believe in. Ya dig? No amount of degrees or certifications will change my heart.

You really don't see having absolute conviction in something without proof as being a problem? You are essentially saying "I don't know if this is true or false", and then you deny anything that IS true that contradicts it. Basically you are rejecting the use of logic in your life.

[I-dreezyAFG]

So god created Satan as a greedy being, and then punished him for it? That's like telling your kid to steal your car, and then beating him up for it. Except worse because the punishment is infinite.

 

If your belief has no logic behind it then... well, making decisions based on it is the absolute height of fallacy. Believing in something just because its comforting is to literally close your ears to reality and take refuge in ignorance.

 

I seriously doubt that. I've heard plenty of services and either didn't think much, or completely disagreed. I doubt your church is a "super church" that is totally different from any other christian church at all.

 

If you have a personal relationship with someone you admit to have no logic to believe in, that's called hallucinating.

 

well, in islam, its like this:

 

god had just finished creating the first human, adam. now he commanded all the angels to bow down to adam. all of them did, except for one, iblis/lucifer (da-da-daaa! BTW, in islam hes called iblis). this idiot was all like, "I dont bow down for $H!+ im fire! and hes no ice!" becaue god created adam frm clay, mud, or dirt. then god's like, "INFEDEL! YE WHO BE CAST DOWN TO HELL! JERK-ASS!" The-end! i kinda exaggereted a bit though.

[Dr. Cakey]

There's actually a half-way decent interpretation of the fall of the Islamic Lucifer that's really kind of interesting - it has been interpreted that Iblis refused to bow to humanity because he would only bow to God, and was unable to see the divinity in Allah's creation. Not bad stuff, huh?

 

Okay, Mystic Keeper-san, you accept a belief in Satan. That, I think, is generally a bad move, but let's continue. God created Lucifer with all his positive attributes like being all glowy* and being a sexy beast. Wherefore did Lucifer inherit the unpleasant property of greed? Did future-Satan send evil back in time so that his past-self would become evil in order to maintain a stable time loop? Did God not create everything?

 

But no, I don't think being religious prevents you from being punished. That's stupid.

Yes, it is. That's called "election", and is a mainstay of several forms of Protestantism. But is the converse of the statement true? That is, is...

 

Not being religious (Specifically Christian) causes you to be punished.

...true?

 

* The moment I see an English copy of Glow-Up Bulb, I will, for the rest of my life, exchange the words 'grow' and 'glow', so Lucifer would, in the future, "be all growy".

[~/Coolio Prime\~]

Why would what happens on Earth matter so much if there were an eternal afterlife?

 

Okay.

[Dad]

You really don't see having absolute conviction in something without proof as being a problem? You are essentially saying "I don't know if this is true or false", and then you deny anything that IS true that contradicts it. Basically you are rejecting the use of logic in your life.

 

I think you misunderstand me. I realize there is no hard evidence to back up my beliefs. But all my life I've grown up this way, and this faith has had major influence on my life. I can't prove it as true, no. But I do believe it is. That's why I said "I do know it is illogical".

 

 

There's actually a half-way decent interpretation of the fall of the Islamic Lucifer that's really kind of interesting - it has been interpreted that Iblis refused to bow to humanity because he would only bow to God, and was unable to see the divinity in Allah's creation. Not bad stuff, huh?

 

Okay, Mystic Keeper-san, you accept a belief in Satan. That, I think, is generally a bad move, but let's continue. God created Lucifer with all his positive attributes like being all glowy* and being a sexy beast. Wherefore did Lucifer inherit the unpleasant property of greed? Did future-Satan send evil back in time so that his past-self would become evil in order to maintain a stable time loop? Did God not create everything?

 

I dunno. I myself can't answer that. But as one of the more competent Christians, I don't think anyone can. Maybe one of those wacky religious nuts who takes every word of the Bible literally can tell you.

 

 

Yes, it is. That's called "election", and is a mainstay of several forms of Protestantism. But is the converse of the statement true? That is, is...

 

 

...true?

 

* The moment I see an English copy of Glow-Up Bulb, I will, for the rest of my life, exchange the words 'grow' and 'glow', so Lucifer would, in the future, "be all growy".

 

I lul'd. xD

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I think you misunderstand me. I realize there is no hard evidence to back up my beliefs. But all my life I've grown up this way, and this faith has had major influence on my life. I can't prove it as true, no. But I do believe it is. That's why I said "I do know it is illogical".

I understood you perfectly. And the fact that you DO understand that they are illogical makes me completely baffled as to why you would insist they are correct. "I was brought up that way" is simply not sound grounds for determining your belief system. You need to put thought into it.

[Dad]

I understood you perfectly. And the fact that you DO understand that they are illogical makes me completely baffled as to why you would insist they are correct. "I was brought up that way" is simply not sound grounds for determining your belief system. You need to put thought into it.

 

Well, I'm not as bright as you are. I can't put it into words. I don't know why I believe these things. Maybe the impact they've had on my life is grounds for it, I dunno. I just don't see me changing though.

[Dark]

Then don't ever express your beliefs as true if you can't even attempt to run a current of logic through it.

 

And don't mind if people call you delusional, since someone once called me delusional when I said that my teacher was a fluffy lesbian unicorn that had a blue horn and seven green arms, and wore a pumpkin costume. I didn't have much logic to back it up, but I just believed it.

[I-dreezyAFG]

There's actually a half-way decent interpretation of the fall of the Islamic Lucifer that's really kind of interesting - it has been interpreted that Iblis refused to bow to humanity because he would only bow to God, and was unable to see the divinity in Allah's creation. Not bad stuff, huh?

 

Okay, Mystic Keeper-san, you accept a belief in Satan. That, I think, is generally a bad move, but let's continue. God created Lucifer with all his positive attributes like being all glowy* and being a sexy beast. Wherefore did Lucifer inherit the unpleasant property of greed? Did future-Satan send evil back in time so that his past-self would become evil in order to maintain a stable time loop? Did God not create everything?

 

 

 

*sighs* in english pleaze? >_>

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Your analogy is bad; god is willingly putting billions of people's lives at risk' date=' and is doing nothing about it. If the god in question is not omnibenevolent, why worship him? If he is... well, I've proven already that he isn't.[/quote']

 

You can't say this God fellow isn't omnibenevolent because benevolence is subjective. Christianity assumes God's view point is perfection. Perfection is subjective, so hypothetical "perfections" could be pretty crazy s***, but the could still be perfections one could live by.

 

God did not create the universe.

 

Until there is no hypothetical explanation for God existing' date=' Hawking cannot be sure of this claim. Uncertain claims cannot be treated as logical arguments. Logical arguments are certain. Take mine for example. I'm 100% certain that God [i']might[/i] exist.

[Dark]

Logical arguments don't necessarily have to be certain. We cannot prove without a doubt that aliens exist, but we can prove using science and a basic grasp of how life forms that there is a 99.9999% chance that cellular beings have formed on at least one other planet in the universe. There is still a chance we're the only ones, but science has pretty much diminished that probability to a fraction of a fraction of a percent. Are you suggesting that the claim that aliens exist is not logical because it is just barely shy of absolute certainty? It is only not certain, but that does not make the claim illogical. Similarly, one can claim a god does not exist and use science and whatnot to back up their claims, and thus form a logical argument. Is it certain? No. Is it probable and logical? Yes.

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

Arguments based on what is considered to be probable are illogical because they don't consider the margin of error. There is a chance the given claim could be later proven with certainty to be wrong, and the claim would therefore have been improper in the first place. Assumptions =/= a valid argument.

[Dark]

I don't understand your logic that unless something is confirmed to be true with absolute certainty, it is an illogical argument.

 

Are you implying that claiming aliens exist is illogical because there is a 0.0001% that your claim is actually incorrect?

[~ P O L A R I S ~]

I can't answer that particular question with a claim of my own, because I'm not absolutely certain of whether or not certain individuals are absolutely certain that there's alien life. Unless they are certain though, the claim can't be logically made.

[GenzoTheHarpist]

I can't answer that particular question with a claim of my own, because I'm not absolutely certain of whether or not certain individuals are absolutely certain that there's alien life. Unless they are certain though, the claim can't be logically made.

Science can't "prove" anything. There's always a possibility it could be shown to be wrong later on. Nevertheless we must make judgments based on the best data available at the time, otherwise the scientific method would be powerless to create anything in the world.