How to kill E-Drags in as little cards as possible

[Just Crouton]

Wouldn't that just kill the deck then?

Well, if semi-limiting them might work, I guess...

_____

 

The deck shouldn't exist because the cards shouldn't exist.

[dokktorawesome]

It's a deckthts totally bad for the game, it has no business living in the first place.

True...this is kinda the first SUPER broke archtype imo... You barely even have to think to win with them,just spam their effects

[vla1ne]

Then why not question 'the way this game is made'? Something must give -- either the way we drop the required materials for our Exceed Summons (or Synchro Summons, or Fusion Summons, or Tribute Summons) -- or the monsters we are supposed to bring out, if we are to avoid very unpleasant things like dropping Dragossacks and Big Eyes and Gaia Dragons and Abyssteuses once a turn, or even several times a turn if need be, courtesy of Lord of the Tachyon Galaxy.

 

 

 

Given that I emphasize the role Exceed Materials play in determining Big Eye's or any other Exceed's place on the list, you will find me straying off topic more often than not, to ensure that an appropriate course of action is taken.

 

As for the shenanigans that different decks pull to bring this out, I think that it'll be worthwhile if we question the way we bring out our Exceeds (and Synchros and whatever else) as these monsters need you to relinquish some of your resources or momentum to bring them out, and where they are brought out without any requisite loss in momentum or resources, there are bound to be problems.

you're right, this game DOES need some major tweaks if it ever again wants to resemble a balanced game. but the sad fact is, KONAMI is probably never going to address this issue, so the most we can currently hope for is a ban-limit-list that can at least keep the game from shattering under the weight of it's own brokenness.

 

as such, the best current (temporary) solution would be to ban/limit the cards that create this massive imbalance to the game. and right now, Number 11: big-eye, and the Elemental Dragons are very major offenders to the current gamestate. similar to the way (I'm not saying AS bad as) goyo guardian was a major offender to the balance during the early Synchro days, the Elemental Dragons (and to a arguably lesser extent Number 11) are not cards that promote strategic plays. both subjects in question have abilities that can completely wreck almost every possible play not specifically designed to counter them, and by that I mean that if they hit field (or anywhere in the case of the dragons) then they can usually just take the game and bend it over for their own enjoyment, no matter what kind of advantage you have, these cards can take everything you worked on building and either break it, or steal it for what is arguably very little cost.

before these cards came about, yes there were absolutely broken cards looking at you Thousand-Eyes-Restrict and Yata-Garasu but they at least required some skill, or at least a lucky set-up to pull off. goyo got banned because he did the same thing as Big-Eye, the difference is that while goyo ran the risk of hitting cards like mirror force, and he also couldn't get over monsters that walled him out, Number 11 can take monsters without even half as much worry, and they don't even have to be face-up to steal them. allowing more than 1 Big-Eye in any deck would mean you lose any monster-related defenses you had, and odds are they'll be used against you instead.

the game rules DO need changing, but that's about as likely as a 3-day blizzard in the amazon rainforest. so at the very least, the cards that unbalance the game the most should be regulated to keep things semi-fair for competitive play.

[Thomas★Zero]

When looking at this some of the things that could get notably hit because of this are...

Big Eye or Draco Sak to 1 (because either having a free steal or a monster with protection which can be used to destroy cards is quite powerful but its just nuts having both at 3.)
Gold Sarc to 2 or 1 (because this is a example of triggering effects through its banishment and then just adding the just to banish more dragons and summon it is just nuts.)
Super Rejuvenation to 1 (because of how we all know how dragons just abuse this like crazy for those crazy pluses.)

That in total is 3 possible cards to be hit on the ban list to attempt in slowing down E-Drags.

[Althemia]

That wouldn't work as well as hitting each individual big dragon. The deck was a force to be reckon with even before the chibis showed up, and it will be without them.

The babies ideally made the deck to be perfectly honest, as just having the big ones meant that you would have to have open a minimum of 3 different ones in order to do the silly stuff that they can do now.

It has to be a hit on either all of the babies or some of the bigger dragons. Not all of them are really necessary.

[Strider Tigerwolf]

For E-Dragons:

 

Tempest to 1

Tidal to 1

Blaster to 1

Redox to 1

 

Baby Temp to 2

Baby Tidal 2

Baby Blaster to 2

Baby Redox to 2

 

Super Juju to 1

7 Sword untouched

Gold Sarc untouched

LaDD untouched

Big Eye to 1/banned

 

Fixed?

[Sora1499]

For E-Dragons:

 

Tempest to 1

Tidal to 1

Blaster to 1

Redox to 1

 

Baby Temp to 2

Baby Tidal 2

Baby Blaster to 2

Baby Redox to 2

 

Super Juju to 1

7 Sword untouched

Gold Sarc untouched

LaDD untouched

Big Eye to 1/banned

 

Fixed?

Eh, if you were to hit all the E-Dragons to 1, then the only baby that you'd need to hit would be Stream.

[Superdoopertrooper]

Big Eye doesn't need a hit. The things that bring it out for peanuts are the problem. And seriously, lol @ Fog King. Like, Jesus Harold Christ, if you run Fog King and use it to make a Big Eye, you damn well deserve it.

[Sora1499]

[quote name="Superdoopertrooper" post="6185037" timestamp="1366559792"]Big Eye doesn't need a hit. The things that bring it out for peanuts are the problem. And seriously, lol @ Fog King. Like, Jesus Harold Christ, if you run Fog King and use it to make a Big Eye, you damn well deserve it.[/quote] I agree and disagree with your statement. On one hand, rank 7s are supposed to require effort to produce and compensate accordingly by being really powerful. On the other, big eye is awful design.

[Superdoopertrooper]

On the other, big eye is awful design.

 

He's not. Level 7's (barring E-Dragons and Mermails, which both need to be hit) are difficult to bring out, especially 2 of them. He can't attack the turn he steals, which is a good balancing factor. He's perfectly fine. Nobody gave a stuff about him when he first came out and he was like $5 each. It wasn't until decks that are broken without him anyway came out that his price went up to $80.

[Toffee.]

He's not. Level 7's are difficult to bring out

:mellow:

Level 7 monsters aren't impossible.
Hell, you can very easily Summon a bunch of them in decks that aren't Incarantes.

[Tenoè]

It doesn't matter how hard Big Eye is to summon, the fact remains that it's a badly designed card with an OP effect that only exists to be abused; hence it being like $5-7 before Edrags and now it's like $70. The fact that it's seeing play NOW is the perfect time to hit it, because even if you murder Edrags every other way, eventually another deck is going to come along and abuse it again. Either it's not particularly playable or it's broken, therefore it needs to go.

[Suibon]

Level 7 monsters aren't impossible.
Hell, you can very easily Summon a bunch of them in decks that aren't Incarantes.

 

Who says they are impossible to Summon? But that's not the point -- if you bring out Big Eye by paying the needed costs -- by losing tempo -- by committing resources -- and not skimping on anything the way we do with Elemental Dragons -- it is very possible to think of Big Eye as being balanced.

 

 

It doesn't matter how hard Big Eye is to summon, the fact remains that it's a badly designed card with an OP effect that only exists to be abused; hence it being like $5-7 before Edrags and now it's like $70. The fact that it's seeing play NOW is the perfect time to hit it, because even if you murder Edrags every other way, eventually another deck is going to come along and abuse it again. Either it's not particularly playable or it's broken, therefore it needs to go.

 

Hitting it because of your intimation that it's poorly designed -- even with the qualification of it being a Rank 7 Exceed that should be hard to bring out -- risks giving any future easily-brought-out Level 7s an excuse to exist, regardless of whether or not they deserve to exist, and that is not something you guys should encourage.

[Legend Zero]

What is with the reasoning of "Level 7 monsters should be difficult to bring out"? Levels were a way to regulate power cards way back when. Now days power cards could be of any level. That is the past talking and it really has no relevance on today's cards.

 

I mean, the entire Xyz concept means that konami will have to allow for ease of access to multiples of similar levels. Otherwise, we would end of with a massive amount of Xyz for levels 1-4 (we already have a ton of rnk 4), or we would have multiple level altering effects. (and we all know that konami will do/does these things because they want to push Xyz)

 

So, can somebody explain it to me? Why should newer level 7 cards be hard to bring out? Why should all level 7s be restricted like that in order for Big Eye to remain "balanced"?

[Cobalt2]

I think one of the bigger problems is Blaster. If he were limited, there would be less outs for what players would side against them. I think limiting all of the adult dragons would probably be best.

[Just Crouton]

What is with the reasoning of "Level 7 monsters should be difficult to bring out"? Levels were a way to regulate power cards way back when. Now days power cards could be of any level. That is the past talking and it really has no relevance on today's cards.

 

I mean, the entire Xyz concept means that konami will have to allow for ease of access to multiples of similar levels. Otherwise, we would end of with a massive amount of Xyz for levels 1-4 (we already have a ton of rnk 4), or we would have multiple level altering effects. (and we all know that konami will do/does these things because they want to push Xyz)

 

So, can somebody explain it to me? Why should newer level 7 cards be hard to bring out? Why should all level 7s be restricted like that in order for Big Eye to remain "balanced"?

_____

 

No idea, but that logic is really stupid.

 

New cards shouldn't be restricted to maintain the balance of an existing card with questionable design. If an existing card's balance is easily affected by new cards that can use it, the existing card should get banlist attention, because it's clearly the problem.

 

Should we cripple every new Dragon and ban every Miracle Fusion-style spell to balance Future Fusion?

 

Should we ban every Wind-Up card that can abuse Zenmaighty and Hunter to balance both?

 

Should we ban every draw card to balance Exodia or even put it at anything higher than 1?

[Exiro]

Why shouldn't there be?

 

What's the point of Xyz if you can summon them without jumping through hoops?

 

Allow me to explain how the game works. There are cards that are stronger but require more effort to play, like Monarchs, and there are more playable cards whose reward is lower when they're played, like Thunder King Rai-Oh. This is how the game has always been. The concept behind LV7 monsters is still that you have to tribute 2 monsters to summon it, and the ones that are easier to summon are still the exceptions - it just happens to be the case that there are many exceptions; they've accumulated over the years and it was fine because there was nothing to abuse - until recently.

 

The existence of easy-to-summon LV7 monsters with not too big a reward, is acceptable. The existence of Rank 7 monsters with a card design that assumes LV7 monsters are hard to summon, is also acceptable. It's the combination of the two, that's unacceptable. There are two solutions:

• Get rid of the easy-to-summon LV7 monsters so that Rank 7 can be reserved for things that are harder to summon but give a greater reward. Like LV10 Synchros, there is a place for that.
• Make Rank 7 like Rank 4, where you get a mediocre reward for something not too hard to summon.

The problem with the latter is that if the cards needed to be playable-with-mediocre-reward, they could just as well be Rank 4. The only thing you're doing by making LV7 like LV4, is that some playable-with-mediocre-reward cards require one pool of cards (LV4 monsters), and other playable-with-mediocre-reward cards require another pool of cards (LV7 monsters), while no longer allowing for less-playable-with-big-reward cards, a concept that has existed since Summoned Skull.

 

There are already enough ways in which boss monsters split the card pool (one Xyz monster requires two LV4 Warrior-type monsters, another requires Dark monsters, and so forth). I don't see the use of making LV7 just another type with its own bosses. Reserving Rank 7 for less-playable-with-big-reward cards increases the variability of the game; players will have to deal with many weaker bosses on the one hand, and fewer strong bosses on the other hand, rather than only the former. When players need to take more things into account, more deck building skill is encouraged, which is hopefully what we all desire.

 

 

Now tell me how Big Eye isn't bad for the game,

 

You're doing it the wrong way around. Allow me to explain how debates regarding the ban list are done. Unlimited is a card's default status, and if you claim that this card in particular is an exception to the rule, you give arguments why it should be limited/restricted. We then give counterarguments, etc. At all times, the arguments you give as reasons why its status should not be unlimited, serve as the basis, the platform for the debate, the trees from which branches arise, if you will. At no point are we, the people who think that it is not an exception, required to plant trees ourselves - we just counter your arguments until there's an agreement that the card is not, in fact, an exception.

 

 

especially when this format proves it is?

 

 

Ban Normal Monsters! This format proves that Normal Monsters are broken!

Are you stupid or what? This comparison alone makes all of your arguments moot.

 

I use ad hominems and I'm proud of it!

 

 

There's no comparison to make here, and it's basically just an attack on our credibility. And a horrible one at that.

 

The comparison seems pretty straightforward to me. The only thing you've done is incorrectly describe the argument's purpose. How about you actually show why there is no relation between having only playable-with-mediocre-reward cards, and Tour Guide-inspired mess. Because I refuse to believe that you're not intelligent enough to grasp said relation, or at the very least understand, why such a relation comes off as obvious to many. If everyone who thinks this seemingly obvious relation exists is wrong, certainly it would require some articulation beyond "muh credibility," don't you think?

 

 

We're saying that you shouldn't have to, say, put the same effort you'd put into summonign something like Quasar (also awful design) into making a Rank 7.

 

The required effort put into summoning a Rank 7 monster is only comparable with the effort put into summoning Quasar Dragon, if the rewards are also comparable. Since I refuse to believe that you actually think having a Big Eye on the field is on par with having a Quasar Dragon on the field, I propose you refrain from using such biased examples.

 

 

Except it's an obvious conclusion that a free-ish permanent steal is badly designed. That's not hard to debate. It's been so since its creation, it's just in the limelight now.

 

If it isn't free-ish, on the other hand, it can be perfectly acceptable.

It doesn't matter how hard Big Eye is to summon, the fact remains that it's a badly designed card with an OP effect that only exists to be abused; hence it being like $5-7 before Edrags and now it's like $70.

 

It doesn't matter how hard Locomotion R-Genex is to summon, the fact remains that it's a badly designed card with an OP effect that only exists to be abused; hence it being like [insert irrelevant stuff here].

[Tenoè]

It doesn't matter how hard Locomotion R-Genex is to summon, the fact remains that it's a badly designed card with an OP effect that only exists to be abused; hence it being like [insert irrelevant stuff here].

Big eye has better stats, it's generic, you can choose what you steal and it can also steal Xyzs, and you can also steal up to two times at any time. It's also fully playable in many more competent decks (if Locomotion is competent in any...which he isn't) such as Mermail, Prophecy, Edrags obviously, and Beastcrafts after Shadow Specters.

There's no point in saying "lol lets ban every good level 7 monster" because that's completely unrealistic and never going to happen. Why ban a ton of balanced cards just to keep a card which is clearly unbalanced if those cards were legal around? It will see no play if it's unplayable to the point that next to nothing can drop it, and if something could drop it easily enough then that card needs to go as well. If Big Eye is he who must not be Summoned without at least -3ing, then why is that? It couldn't be that the card is far too powerful, is it?

[cr47t]

it's an Exceed Monster

 

It`s called Xyz, not Exceed.

[Sora1499]

[quote name="cr47t" post="6185689" timestamp="1366660385"]It`s called Xyz, not Exceed.[/quote] It feels like you're getting dumber by the minute. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Xyz_Monster

[Agro]

It feels like you're getting dumber by the minute. http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Xyz_Monster

He's not wrong. It was mistranslated as Exceed. It's officially known as Xyz.

[Suibon]

It`s called Xyz, not Exceed.

 

I prefer evocative language to alphabet soups that mean absolutely nothing.

[Agro]

I prefer evocative language to alphabet soups that mean absolutely nothing.

I prefer calling something as something it's not just because I like how it sounds too.

 

Though it's less of an issue since Exceed is what TCGland originally thought it was called.

[evilfusion]

It`s called Xyz, not Exceed.

 

Starting from this post (at the very least) you guys began drifting dangerously off-topic and into pointless spam/argumentativeness, made worse since origin post miscalling it "Exceed" was posted like 3 days ago. Stay on topic and keep discussion relevent and respectful.

 

Topic didn't really need to be locked, so unlocked. If the spam/argumentativeness resumes, it will be re-locked.

[Agro]

OKAY

 

If you just want to try to revert the metagame to what it was like 2-3 formats ago, put all the big dragons to 1.

 

If you want to make the game actually fixable, ban all the big guys. BAN THEM ALL TO HELL.