Cards I think should be banned

[Toffee.]

And also my deck isn't like any Crystal Beast deck

It's in the top percentage of Crystal Beast decks.

[Mugendramon]

Do you realize that last format a card could be deemed good solely because of being an out to Shock Master?

[Aerion Brightflame]

Regardless in my opinion, Shocky isn't as OP as everyone thinks. But to me I'd prefer it'd be limited then Banned. That's something that won't change.
And also my deck isn't like any Crystal Beast deck most people have seen. It works very well for me.

Regardless, the biggest thing I want to see off the banlist is Monster Reborn.

 

But Limited doesn't change the issues it does... because one Shock would still clinch games and give massive advantage from nothing, and do everything Shsock is degenerate for. It simply means that you couldn't get off the hard lock of 3 Shocks... Not exactly a major improvement.

 

I also want to pick up a little point you made earlier along the lines of:

My entire argument is that there are a lot of counters to No. 16 (not just a few with the compared cards) and while I agree that it may have been more balanced if there was more of a cost but still I think the card isn't the be-all end-all that most people here are claiming it is...

 

Near every card in the game is counterable or managable by the sheer virtue of a combination of Warning, Veiler and Magic Jammer/Seven Tools. Does this mean we should unban all cards because they are counterable?

 

To save you having to think, no you shouldn't. Because it is statistically impossible for you to have a counter on hand every single time a certain card is used. So the logical course of action is to measure the impact of a card when there are no counters on hand. I feel at least. Which in the case of Shock Master means massive advantage for the user off of basically no cost.

 

A deck might be capable of getting around Shock Master, that's true, but it also has to do that with a third of it's deck shut out (Or more as the case may be) have that actual card in hand, and pray your opponent doesn't have his own counter to your attempt to remove it from the field.

 

It's just an unfair card that's rightfully earned it's place in the eternal flames of the banlist.

[goddamnit names are a pain]

Monster Reborn seems fine to me. Because you can run it in literally any deck. You had the same chance as your opponent. Shock Master sucks because not everyone could run 3 Level 4s that could be summoned easily. Seriously, I wish MR could come back too, because each player had the chance to make a comeback or strengthen a play. 

And on a slightly-off topic note, what is your DN Username? I wanna fight so badly. Lets invite others to see how well Crystal Beasts play, no offense.

[Cute Rotten Yoshika]

Monster Reborn seems fine to me. Because you can run it in literally any deck. You had the same chance as your opponent. Shock Master sucks because not everyone could run 3 Level 4s that could be summoned easily. Seriously, I wish MR could come back too, because each player had the chance to make a comeback or strengthen a play. 

And on a slightly-off topic note, what is your DN Username? I wanna fight so badly. Lets invite others to see how well Crystal Beasts play, no offense.

 

Wooooooooarrrrgh! monster reborn is inherently unfair because the person who draws it first has a huge advantage. and even if you somehow draw it at the same time then turn player gets to use it first. monster reborn is too easy and free and mindless. you summon the monster that has the greatest chance of fucking them over. thats just unhealthy.

[Matches]

Near every card in the game is counterable or managable by the sheer virtue of a combination of Warning, Veiler and Magic Jammer/Seven Tools. Does this mean we should unban all cards because they are counterable?

 

To save you having to think, no you shouldn't. Because it is statistically impossible for you to have a counter on hand every single time a certain card is used. So the logical course of action is to measure the impact of a card when there are no counters on hand. I feel at least. Which in the case of Shock Master means massive advantage for the user off of basically no cost.

 

Thank you! I was just about to say the same thing. Even if a card can be countered, that doesn't suddenly make it fair. Although I've never had much trouble dealing with Shock Master myself since I somehow always end up having something to counter it on my next turn (lucky me, I guess), I can still agree that is an unfair card and should rightfully remain banned.

[TFMegamanlan]

I'm Nexucon Prime. Actually I'm testing out a few cards from Shadow Spectors anyway too. (I may be on tonight or tomorrow)

I agree, what deck doesn't benefit from Reborn? That's the thing. Sure, some decks can't run No. 16 but what I'm saying is that the card only works well in a format like today's. If Dragon Rulers was based on not only Monsters, but also strong Spells and Traps and didn't have insane Monster effects, No. 16 wouldn't be as great. Just think of that. Just like most Decks today wouldn't be freaking out by Cold Wave except for Tier 2 decks that work more on their support backrow anyway.

[Dementuo]

the card only works well in a format like today's.

That's literally all that matters, and that's literally the biggest reason why it's banned.

[Sleepy]

I'm Nexucon Prime. Actually I'm testing out a few cards from Shadow Spectors anyway too. (I may be on tonight or tomorrow)

I agree, what deck doesn't benefit from Reborn? That's the thing. Sure, some decks can't run No. 16 but what I'm saying is that the card only works well in a format like today's. If Dragon Rulers was based on not only Monsters, but also strong Spells and Traps and didn't have insane Monster effects, No. 16 wouldn't be as great. Just think of that. Just like most Decks today wouldn't be freaking out by Cold Wave except for Tier 2 decks that work more on their support backrow anyway.

 

I've been following this thread since last night, so I just wanted to quote whatever post of yours, and the most recent one seems to be adequate.

For starters, I'll explain the difference between cards like Jinzo, Spell canceller and Decree compared to Shock Master.

First, the other cards you mentioned are Main Deck cards, which means you need to have something to get to them or wait until you draw them. Meanwhile, the Extra Deck is always available to you.

Second, the cards you mentioned have a pre-determined hate group. Jinzo and Decree only go after Trap Cards for example. That means that each of them is only really useful in 1/3 of the situations that Shock Master is good at.

Third, Shock Master is a trigger effect. The others will have your situation fixed as soon as you get rid of them, but Number 16 will be active until it originally was gonna be active at regardless of if you destroy it or not, which essentially means that your opponent at the very least, is gonna have his/her play delayed a turn.

 

Though to be fair, I actually dislike sealing effects in general. Necro Valley, Skill Drain, Naturia Synchros, Macro Cosmos, Jinzo, Decree, etc. in general. The game have almost 7000 cards, and having decks that focus on a certain kind of card is ought to happen. Some decks are Trap Monster based, some are Spell Counter based, some depend on revival cards almost exclusively. Having those kinds of decks is only natural because if you have a proper focus, you can go further than with random tuti-fruti generic-good cards. The best sealing card I've seen that's not too harsh is Fossil Dyna. Others will auto-kill certain decks.

 

You happen to have a deck that can go about it multiple ways. Your Crystal Beasts going to the S/T Zone are a continuous effect that Shock Master doesn't negate (I think), if your Field Spell was already active, that helps you a ton. So it's more of a waiting game for you, but two things come out of that.

One: You can't assume all decks are capable of doing the same.

Two: While it is true that other generic pieces of removal are useful, the generic ones are rarely not independent from your deck's strategy. Sure I could run Smashing Ground in any deck, but that'd be instead of something that would give me speed in some way, and more often than not, the most possible consistency wins more. There's only so much you can tech without disrupting the original strategy, and because of that, it depends on if you'd have the out or not, and that's more of a luck factor because if you don't, well, many decks suffer from that situation.

 

Also, have you seen someone make 2 Shock Masters? There are some decks that can do it. There's also the trick of going for 69 and then for 16, so even if it gets limited you can have 2 of them out. I've even had the luxury of protecting it with Honest in the past.

 

Finally, there's the point of "a purpose on the game".

As a 3 material monster, you must be having a decent amount of advantage to invest into making it. If you are losing a game, you either don't have what you need to bring it out to begin with, or you'll prefer something with more "come-back" capabilities, like Ophion, or a wall of Utopia or Maestroke.

 

The reality is that the card needs certain situations to work. You either need to know your opponent is having a deck that focuses on X the most, like Spells for Spellbooks, or Monster for Dragons OR you need to account for your opponent's resources so you can play it when you know X cards have been used, and act accordingly. In short, it's either the "I seal your main focus" or "I push for game", which are not too different from one another.

 

It's not anti-meta if the meta can use it more effectively, to be honest.

[TFMegamanlan]

I can't even figure out what is meta right now because Tier 1 seems to be just Dragon Rulers... I mean every other deck that was said to be going to Tier 1 I keep on hearing they did horribly...

[Dementuo]

I can't even figure out what is meta right now because Tier 1 seems to be just Dragon Rulers... I mean every other deck that was said to be going to Tier 1 I keep on hearing they did horribly...

Dragons make up between 50%-75% of decks that appear in events this format, so they're pretty much the deck to beat. They were more powerful than people originally realized, so now we're dealing with them for the rest of this format too.

Things like Fire Fists, Mermails, and Evilswarm could hold their own, but it's a hard fight.

[Matches]

Dragons make up between 50%-75% of decks that appear in events this format, so they're pretty much the deck to beat. They were more powerful than people originally realized, so now we're dealing with them for the rest of this format too.
Things like Fire Fists, Mermails, and Evilswarm could hold their own, but it's a hard fight.

Dragons pretty much f***ed up this format.

[Sleepy]

It's even pretty comical, really.

Dragons lost what?

3 of each of the 4 bady dragons

3 of their drawing Spell

Monster Reborn

????

 

They at least lost 16 out of 40 slots in their Main Deck.

Apparently, they weren't hit hard enough.

At the very least, Return from the Different DImension will go soon.

[Blake]

It's even pretty comical, really.

Dragons lost what?

3 of each of the 4 bady dragons

3 of their drawing Spell

Monster Reborn

????

 

They at least lost 16 out of 40 slots in their Main Deck.

Apparently, they weren't hit hard enough.

At the very least, Return from the Different DImension will go soon.

Dragons didn't run Monster Reborn for the most part.

[Matches]

[quote name="Masquerade Black" post="6306868" timestamp="1384633732"]Dragons didn't run Monster Reborn for the most part.[/quote] They didn't need to run Monster Reborn, that's why.

[Sleepy]

I see...

Yeah, it felt like a mistake to say that one.

 

Though, 15 slots is still a pretty hard hit. When was the last time a deck was hit that fiercely? TeleDAD?

[Toffee.]

I'll be random for a second-

Dragons pretty much f***ed up this format.

MEANWHILE AT KONAMI...

Head of Konami: "Hey guys, what if we made Elemental Dragons that can play off eachother?"


Idea Guy 1: "Yea, and lets let them all search for one another while we are at it"


Idea Guy 2: "Buy guys! They can only use 1 of their effects each turn, as to not break them!"

.......


Breakroom guy: "LETS GIVE THEM ALL E-TELES!"
 

Though, 15 slots is still a pretty hard hit. When was the last time a deck was hit that fiercely? TeleDAD?

You can tell an archetype is poorly designed when the deck has to loose 15 cards.

[Matches]

I see...
Yeah, it felt like a mistake to say that one.

Though, 15 slots is still a pretty hard hit. When was the last time a deck was hit that fiercely? TeleDAD?

While true, Dragons, despite being hit, haven't been hit hard enough.

[Sleepy]

I'll be random for a second-MEANWHILE AT KONAMI...

Head of Konami: "Hey guys, what if we made Elemental Dragons that can play off eachother?"


Idea Guy 1: "Yea, and lets let them all search for one another while we are at it"


Idea Guy 2: "Buy guys! They can only use 1 of their effects each turn, as to not break them!"

.......


Breakroom guy: "LETS GIVE THEM ALL E-TELES!"
 You can tell an archetype is poorly designed when the deck has to loose 15 cards.

 

15, and still be topping overwhelmingly.

Though I can visualize them having approved of that design. I mean, if they approved Spellbook of Judgment's design, a card that doesn't just draw, but downright is capable of searching 6+ cards including RotAs, Monster Reborns, Field Spells, Lances, etc, and gives you a boss from your deck as a bonus.

I wonder if the R&D department playtest area actually exists.

[Matches]

[quote name="Sleepy" post="6306883" timestamp="1384634948"] I wonder if the R&D department playtest area actually exists.[/quote] Now there's a thought. Though I really doubt that they do, and even if they did, I doubt it's done properly.

[Toffee.]

Literally the ONLY, and ONLY reason why Rulers are idiotic, is all. because. they. interact.
Really, who the hell thought that was a good idea?

[Alastar Rainford]

Literally the ONLY, and ONLY reason why Rulers are idiotic, is all. because. they. interact.
Really, who the hell thought that was a good idea?

Jim from accounting?

Most decks I have been seeing online are:E dragon,Hieratic,Vampire, Madolche,Spellbooks,Knights, Photons,and Ghostricks.

[TFMegamanlan]

Now there's a thought. Though I really doubt that they do, and even if they did, I doubt it's done properly.

I think I know what Konami's R&D Dept does:
"Well lets see, I don't think it's OP. What about you Joe?"
"It's good. What about you Mokuba?"
"It's Overpowered."
"Shut up Mokuba"
*stamped with the 'its balanced so print it' stamp*

[pikachu484]

Okay

Beast King Barbaros   You can Normal Summon/Set this card without Tributing, but its original ATK becomes 1900. You can Tribute 3 monsters to Tribute Summon this card. If you do: Destroy all cards your opponent controls.

 

The Calculator

The ATK of this card is the combined Levels of all face-up monsters youcontrol x 300.

[Trebuchet MS]

Okay

Beast King Barbaros   You can Normal Summon/Set this card without Tributing, but its original ATK becomes 1900. You can Tribute 3 monsters to Tribute Summon this card. If you do: Destroy all cards your opponent controls.

 

The Calculator

The ATK of this card is the combined Levels of all face-up monsters youcontrol x 300.

Ok, we're finally back on topic.

 

So, what crazy combo can these cards pull off?
 

They just produce silly high amount of ATK, but nothing else. Doesn't remove things, doesn't protect against stuff, doesn't search or recur. Just a pair of silly beatsticks.

 

Also, Calculator + Metal Reflect Slime is more efficient for making big things. That's about it.