Archetype Generator Meta

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Like I mentioned earlier, there are several reasons why I don't do legacy supports for stuff in here besides my stuff or a few others (well, besides yours lately as a result of the SAA 2.0 thread and elsewhere).

• Archetype is already large enough, so difficult to see what is needed to cover their holes.
• There's a LOT of archetypes to go through.
  • I quipped about it on Discord that our card pool is probably larger than that of Konami's entire lineup, counting the random vanillas and stuff. Obviously I haven't counted, but it's pretty massive.
  • I mean, if you guys provide specific archetypes that require support, I could probably try.
• I don't understand the arch well enough to properly do it (which is also why I don't review every set thread in Advanced; mostly due to lack of MR4 gameplay because YGOPro sucks on Linux)
  • If not playability-wise, then probably flavor.
  • Playability stuff probably goes into what other things we have in generics that make/break sheet. (This is likely why new members to the club are rare)
• Time constraints (i.e. I'm doing senior level CEE work coupled with other things, handling YCM business, Link design, etc)

It's not just those two archetypes I mentioned above, but least the stuff I requested to get in. If I requested them, I sure as hell should make something for the Decks. If I don't, mostly it's due to testing on YGOPro (I refuse to use Dueling Book because the memberbase there is very similar to Misc here / YCM server in a bad way).

 

====

So yeah, it's not that I dislike some of you in this club such that I'm not designing stuff for you, but rather...it's just a lot of stuff to parse though and I don't have the luxury of time for everything.

 

(Also because I need to make sure my own stuff is up to speed too, considering a few of them are legitimately old)

[Draconus297]

Well, if you want a basic list of my archetypes that need support:

●GameChildren have a win condition in the form of using their own pair of Level 12 monsters to screw your opponent over, but no consistent way of getting to Legendary Hero or Ultimate Evil (anyone who brings up the Slime loop doesn't know how inconsistent and ridiculous it is).

●Minicon are kinda harmed by how Graveyard reliant they are, and could probably benefit from either an additional Main Deck monster or a more proactive Xyz that's feasible to use with 2 Materials. I've thought of a few effects for Main Deck monsters (a Kagetokage, Castor, and/or an Anjelly would do most of the work towards making them good without breaking the archetype), but I'm both out of ideas for "stealth forms" (toy vehicles- Control Unit is a stock car, a practical leader, and Backup Unit is a helicopter due to being the team's seventh ranger) and what part of the giant mech they'd be in fully combined form. We've already got two legs, two arms, a torso, a head, and a jetpack, and that's a superhero team on a combining mecha show with 7 members.

●Cosmoraptors and Cosmoriders are the single biggest joke in the AGM, almost to the point where I consider them more an elaborate shitpost than an archetype, mostly because the only monster they have that isn't terrible is their boss that can't be Pendulum Summoned in his own damned archetype and only has value if there are other good Dinosaurs on the field already.

●Funnily enough, despite a Ritual Spell existing for it, Mellaxis lacks a Level 9 Ritual monster, and his archetype is the only one I'd say could legitimately benefit from a series of Link monsters, and you wouldn't even need to try very hard; the only caveat is giving them good effects unrelated to their Markers so their effects can potentially fuel the Deck's Plan B win condition, God-King Mellaxis. Lore-wise, though, they'd have to represent a different viewpoint for Mellaxis to take: The Fusions are him acknowledging the Spellbound monsters as friends and equals, the Synchros show him becoming an egomaniac who "protects" his familiars (think White Man's Burden and you're most of the way there), and the Rituals see him becoming bitter and callous, treating the Spellbounds as slaves and sacrifices to his own power.

●Space Cruisers have the U.A. problem of being impossible to get started if you don't get Argo or Naglfar (CyDra and The Tricky, respectively), and most of the Warp Drives exclusively Summon from the Deck.

●With Tunnelin' Desperadoes I left two holes in the monster lineup, both due to running out of ideas and due to being excited at the prospect of the support AGM members would design.

●I only realized a week ago that Geargoyles have no competent way of actually Summoning their superboss Deity Dragon, and Fabled has an easier time of it than they do. However, I'm out of ideas, having run out of decent cards that Yusei or Jack ran for monster support. Situation honestly reminds me of Infernity with Trishula.

●Sandragons have no Turn 1. Most of their better cards only work if your opponent already has sheet on the field.

●Auras have all of five good cards, and currently their best play is basically Yamato + Kaiser Colosseum that slowly burns your opponent to death, or using that batshit nuts Gilford card in Generics as a Master Peace that makes himself bigger. Even then, there are A LOT of other archetypes that could better utilize their own new boss, because a nearly-free LIGHT Warrior-Type Level 8 that can quickly and easily dispose of problem cards by running Equip Spells is actually really good.

 

Yeah, we probably have a bigger lineup than Konami, but that's probably because we're free to make basically whatever. Konami keeps restricting itself in bizarre ways, and giving archetypes support they neither want nor need.

 

Honestly, if you feel that one or more of your archetypes legitimately needs the support, I'll give it a look for you to examine what its faults actually are. Generally, it's because you're very conservative with your card design, focusing a lot on simple field spamming and often ignoring archetypal gimmicks (your Paraphys card initially lacked the EP staple, your Ice Barrier card didn't stun, your AGM Avengers originally lacked the float, etc.) to accomplish that goal of swarming. This leaves a lot of the archetypes you design with few methods of recourse against disruption, and kinda fragile overall.

 

But that's just my perspective.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Well, you can probably blame the conservative nature of design on the climate of CC that I inherited in 2014. That does include the veterans who somehow find a way to grade a card for how it reacts with Hornet Drones and whatever other sheet that exists (yeah, Drones got hit to 1 this list). And well, a lot of my stuff does follow the 'tellar/'specter pattern of play in terms of activation mostly because the thing works.

 

Obviously, I gotta make things a lot more proactive and less cookie cutter-ish, but not gimmicky to the point where I brick too much. And yes, occasionally, I may have to eschew a ton of the gimmicks for consistency. Is straightforward design boring? To an extent, yes, but there's a limited amount of things you can do before the archetype either becomes too convoluted with its gimmicks (naming and aesthetic stuff isn't in here) and hard to play.

 

Leopard was intended to speed up presence for Barriers so they could do all the locking and stuff; not necessarily contributing to stun itself because to do that, they need other members. More for increasing their Synchro variant to an extent, as it is a fanfic card. I am aware that Barriers can still go Rank 4 into Bahamut / Toadally, but I'd like for them to not be R4 Turbo.

 

---

 

So yeah, partial blame on the mentality of CC (and certain vets*) for certain designs and maybe partial due to influence from academics (i.e. use established methods that work out instead of investing resources into something untested and likely to fail).

 

* this isn't referring to any of you

 

Also because card design is a subjective topic and people certainly have their likes/dislikes about design (even the banlist if you've seen discussions about it here and elsewhere if applicable).

 

---

 

I'll see what I can do about your stuff, but no guarantees (a lot of it also depends on coursework). 

[Tinkerer]

Hello, fine peoples!

 

With all the new cards and the banlist that just came out, my interest has reignited. Also I just missed the place. So I'm back!

 

Caught up with some of the stuff here. Hey, @@Uggla6! Nice to see some new blood 'round here.

 

I'll vote to move U.A. up the cue.

 

EDIT: new AGM archetype, Mecha-Star Dragons: https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/375196-mecha-star-dragon-written-agm/

[Draconus297]

Good to see you back, soldier. You've been missed.

 

Updated queue:

Majespecter (2/3 - Sakura, Nyx)

lswarm, bar Origin and Ophion (2/4 - Nyx, Dova)

Qli, bar Genius (2/3 - Dova, Sakura)

U.A. (2/3 - Sakura, Tinkerer)

Lightsworn, bar Curious (1/3 - Kyumi)

Thunder Dragon (2/3 - Tinkerer, Sakura)

Iron Chain (1/3 - Tinkerer)

 

Yosenju did get in, as I figured that without many floodgates there's no real point to keeping them out.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Just for your information, the archetype game has been moved, post count retroactively added (so yes Draco, you're now at 5400+) and new rules applied. So yeah, business moves on as usual.

 

Now you have another 4,556 posts from this one to go for your 7th star. Workshop should give you a sizable outlet to get it within a couple years (or maybe a couple months to a year if you're crazy enough and others can produce at that speed).

 

---

 

But yeah, still gotta pick a new AGM archetype to work on in the midst of MR4 stuff outside the club (need to update Skystorm Mechas, but again, just disregard it for now).

 

And still waiting for Dova to pick the next group thing.

[Draconus297]

I'm honestly surprised I made 440 posts in the Archetype Game. That's a lot more than expected.

 

As for the next group archetype, Dova's probably writing one out instead of taking it from the thread, to have more freedom.

However, I also recommend he get one ready relatively soon.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I would assume heʻs doing one from scratch as opposed to the thread stuff (which I wouldʻve done as well). Or handling other stuff; idk whatʻs going on with him.

 

But yeah Dova, please hurry. Depending on how sheet ends up, I may not be able to contribute as much to the set as I normally do because of academics and whatever. IDK about Nyx and everyone else, however you get the point.

[Dova]

Sorry for the delay. I'm trying to come up with something interesting, but struggling. Shouldn't take too much longer, though.

[Draconus297]

So, once Garbalords stop nagging at the corners of my mind, I'm starting serious work on Frigates and another side project that refuses to die in my subconscious, and at this rate I'm going to be unable to grade this for a while, but for the sake of @ and @@R.Surraco (or anyone else who doesn't want to use Deck Challenges to get into the AGM) I'll put up the next Card Challenge here (and, if someone wishes, they can move the basic rules I outline below into Card Contests to attract attention- however, if you do so, you'll probably want to put up relevant links, and copy-pasting anything like Dragonna-bugeisha that doesn't have an archetype thread proper).

 

The AGM and its members have changed a lot in the past three years. Most AGM members have undergone huge changes in terms of the way they handle support for an archetype, design of a boss monster, or even the way they think about the meta. However, that means that a lot of our older archetypes wind up getting swept under the rug with powercreep and new designs, and that kind of thinking isn't what this group is about; we try our best to make as much as possible playable, giving support to even the most lost of causes in an attempt to help them see play in some relevant manner.

 

I've already provided a list of my archetypes that need help in that manner, but that list left off Darkhorses, which I actually forgot about due to being so ridiculously old and unfocused, and Dragonna-bugeisha, who hides in the Generics thread due to initially being an adaptation and improvement of the anime boss monster Dragon Lady, and only received a support lineup due to my love of puns and portmanteau words, and her becoming a part of an AGM card storyline.

 

Just like last time, a 4-5 card support lineup is what we're asking for, that answers an archetype's problems, understands the final goal their archetype of choice is working towards, and maybe even comprehends the little flavor notes that make a given archetype feel alive. Bonus points will be awarded if you tie your support into the many hidden gems of solid generic support that hide in various places across the group's threads and accepted Konami stuff (eg. Sage with Eyes of Blue making Level 1 LIGHT Tuners searchable, or Hydra's Egg giving incentive to a 1000/0 statline).

 

Any other AGM member can give their own suggestions regarding archetypes they need that haven't aged well (or were made when they weren't as good at design), but my list is as follows:

●GameChildren have a win condition in the form of using their own pair of Level 12 monsters to screw your opponent over, but no consistent way of getting to Legendary Hero or Ultimate Evil (anyone who brings up the Slime loop doesn't know how inconsistent and ridiculous it is).

●Minicon are kinda harmed by how Graveyard reliant they are, and could probably benefit from either an additional Main Deck monster or a more proactive Xyz that's feasible to use with 2 Materials. I've thought of a few effects for Main Deck monsters (a Kagetokage, Castor, and/or an Anjelly would do most of the work towards making them good without breaking the archetype), but I'm both out of ideas for "stealth forms" (toy vehicles- Control Unit is a stock car, a practical leader, and Backup Unit is a helicopter due to being the team's seventh ranger) and what part of the giant mech they'd be in fully combined form. We've already got two legs, two arms, a torso, a head, and a jetpack, and that's a superhero team on a combining mecha show with 7 members.

●Cosmoraptors and Cosmoriders are the single biggest joke in the AGM, almost to the point where I consider them more an elaborate shitpost than an archetype, mostly because the only monster they have that isn't terrible is their boss that can't be Pendulum Summoned in his own damned archetype and only has value if there are other good Dinosaurs on the field already.

●Funnily enough, despite a Ritual Spell existing for it, Mellaxis lacks a Level 9 Ritual monster, and his archetype is the only one I'd say could legitimately benefit from a series of Link monsters, and you wouldn't even need to try very hard; the only caveat is giving them good effects unrelated to their Markers so their effects can potentially fuel the Deck's Plan B win condition, God-King Mellaxis. Lore-wise, though, they'd have to represent a different viewpoint for Mellaxis to take: The Fusions are him acknowledging the Spellbound monsters as friends and equals, the Synchros show him becoming an egomaniac who "protects" his familiars (think White Man's Burden and you're most of the way there), and the Rituals see him becoming bitter and callous, treating the Spellbounds as slaves and sacrifices to his own power.

●Space Cruisers have the U.A. problem of being impossible to get started if you don't get Argo or Naglfar (CyDra and The Tricky, respectively), and most of the Warp Drives exclusively Summon from the Deck.

●With Tunnelin' Desperadoes I left two holes in the monster lineup, both due to running out of ideas and due to being excited at the prospect of the support AGM members would design.

●I only realized a week ago that Geargoyles have no competent way of actually Summoning their superboss Deity Dragon, and Fabled has an easier time of it than they do. However, I'm out of ideas, having run out of decent cards that Yusei or Jack ran for monster support. Situation honestly reminds me of Infernity with Trishula.

●Sandragons have no Turn 1. Most of their better cards only work if your opponent already has sheet on the field.

●Auras have all of five good cards, and currently their best play is basically Yamato + Kaiser Colosseum that slowly burns your opponent to death, or using that batshit nuts Gilford card in Generics as a Master Peace that makes himself bigger. Even then, there are A LOT of other archetypes that could better utilize their own new boss, because a nearly-free LIGHT Warrior-Type Level 8 that can quickly and easily dispose of problem cards by running Equip Spells is actually really good.

●Darkhorse tried to combine Blackwings with Dark Scorpions, got a couple of decent Synchro Fusion tools, and then died without a competent way of actually Summoning their original boss, Darkhorse Victory, before an opponent puts them in the dirt.

●Dragonna-bugeisha has a rather unique dual-type gimmick, mixed in with repeatedly reviving Tribute fodder that grants her all manner of effects that help with controlling your opponent on their turn or quickly achieving an OTK on your turn. However, beyond a clusterfuck of mediocre-to-good spam effects and consistency that's mostly reliant on Cards of Consonance, Service Soul (Destiny Draw that uses any monster that specifically lists another monster in its text) or already having your boss online, you have a hard time actually getting her to even arrive, let alone you surviving a turn for her to revive and give her the effects she needs to disassemble your opponent's strategy.

[Ἄργος Πανόπτης]

So basically it's last time's thing, but supporting underpowered or powercreeped AGM Archetypes (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Ps: is the Minicon archetype based around the homonym type of Transformers?

[Tinkerer]

So basically it's last time's thing, but supporting underpowered or powercreeped AGM Archetypes (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

Ps: is the Minicon archetype based around the homonym type of Transformers?

I believe the archetype name was suggested because people were on a bit of a Transformers kick at the time.

 

Anyways, I'd like to toss in for the challenge:

 

The Kraken: Less of an archetype but a series of cards supporting this one ridiculous game-winning monster that has the summon condition that it can only be Summoned when all the monster + spell/trap zones on both players' fields are full. Needless to say, there's still a lot to be done to bring the deck forward.

 

Falsehood: An archetype of level 9 trap monsters that get themselves into the opponent's field and continually produce negative effects. Problem is, I'd never designed a way for them to actually win and while having enough members, the deck really was never playable.

 

Underworld Cyborg: An archetype of fiends and machines that focus on stealing the opponent's monsters and changing levels for Rank 3 or 4 plays. Problem is, they are so slow and they are so overly reliant on battle that they are generally inconsistent. Anything that pushes them forward would be appreciated.

[Draconus297]

Yes, Dante, it's the same basic idea.

[R.Surraco]

Okay, I'll shoot for the stars then.

 

How and where do I post the cards, BTW?

[Draconus297]

You can either send them to me via PM, so your submission remains a secret until grading time, or post them here in the thread.

 

Same rules as last time: 4-5 cards, 2 Link monsters maximum if you want to flex (but Links do not count towards your grading unless they're godly or godawful), and you should be aiming to support the archetype in a way that it both needs and that is consistent with the way the archetype works.

[R.Surraco]

Okydoodle!

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

I'll leave a list of all my archetypes (in this club) for the challenge, should you want to do them.

 

[spoiler=List]

Psychic Dragon: Basically 5D's era spamming for Dragons with a side of the Eon siblings from Pokemon. No seriously, there's a good amount of Pokemon references in the naming for the Main Deck.

 

Phoenix Guardian: FIRE Winged-Beasts that kinda play like 'tellars to an extent. I don't really have any design gimmicks here, except for them being FIRE Winged Beasts that can probably use Fire King stuff.

 

Electric Field: EARTH Thunders that usually go Level 8 or Rank 4, but they're adaptable for Links if you need to. Monsters are named after Greek letters (because electric field is a topic in Physics 272 that I had to learn in electronics for major; even if I'm not electrical engineering)

 

Skateboard Dragon: WIND Dragons that deal with Flip Summoning and Rituals. Main Deck shares the same effect as Subterror Guru in "target 1 monster opponent controls; flip it and this card face-down". Named after flowers.

 

Show Jumpers: LIGHT Pyros that return to hand and trigger stuff. Naming derived from Hawaiian words for colors and support cards are aesthetically themed on show jumping events. (Though, far as I care, rodeo based backrow works too). I sorta gave up here due to color naming and other things.

 

Sunbeasts: LIGHT Beasts that floodgate. Most of them are Level 5+, though more ways of getting them out faster (a la Monarch support) helps them go a long way. I don't really need Extra Deck here because of things, but they can go Rank 5 if needed.

 

Fantasy Wyverns: I think LIGHT Wyrms with a Synchro theme and whatnot. Naming alternates between Japanese/Chinese for different phases of the day.

 

RI-ON: Synchro-oriented Dragon deck themed after the Dragon Drive anime/manga. Naming comes from the defunct card game, which I believe I linked in the Support My Archetype thread (least to a small list).

 

ZPD: Obvious Zootopia references and whatnot. I really don't need help with them here monster-wise, but backrow is okay. Just make sure they're somewhat related to law enforcement stuff that's still seen as "ethical".

 

Accelerator Satellite: Rank 9 spam for Machines.

 

Cheetah Racers: Think of Speed Spells on WIND Beast-Warriors named after the word "speed" or "fast" in several languages, according to Google.

 

YCM Heavenly Sovereign: Nekroz, but with the YCM staff. If you opt for this, just work on the non-Rituals and backrow. Rituals are named after the team members at the time of inception with a few notables from the past.

 

I'm the only one in this club who dealt with the old guard (yay for being MyBB veteran), so...yeah. I guess if you want to go make a Ritual, good ex-moderators who weren't included are maybe Aix, Yin/Blood Rose, Opal, Rai, etc.

 

But again, how many of you know the old mods besides me?

 

Firefighter Dragons: WATER Dragons that are big haters of FIRE decks. Needs more ways to be consistent with handling stuff (maybe support in the vein of Catastor would do).

 

Hearts Riding Club: Think this one is generally okay, but maybe flesh out the backrow because I did skimp on it slightly due to the times. Note that the rider + beast combos share the same language for each. Just look at the existing.

 

Windy: Uh, Majespecter 2.0 except returning to hand for costs and stuff (also not as annoying to get rid of).

 

Chaos Synchro: This is technically a collab, but mostly Chaos upgrades of certain Synchros in here.

 

Zeroth Kingdom: This one was made for ChampionZero because he hated Extra Deck bosses and some other stuff. So yeah, work on the backrow.

 

 

 

Feel free to shoot me a PM via Discord or here if you have questions about how stuff works.

[Ἄργος Πανόπτης]

Oh, another thing. How much time do we have?

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Presumably until the end of this month, but ask Draco for clarification.

[Draconus297]

You guys have more time this time, but I don't want to put down a definitive date because of the criteria I'm setting:

 

I won't be able to effectively grade until I've finished Garbalords, Frigates, and Magistrake, because those three projects are taking up a lot of my site-centric focus. So, once BOTH of the following criteria have been met, I will shut down entries and commence grading:

1. October 14th.

2. I have the thread for Magistrake up, without an affixed WIP. (Note that I will be finishing Frigates before starting to post Magistrake cards, and figuring out a GODDAMN EFFECT for the Level 7 Garbalord Synchro before putting up the Frigate thread.)

[Uggla6]

Alright guys, my first archetype for AGM should be posted tonight for Ravenituals instead of Sporoxic (just came easier to me to make, but I'll get to work on them soon). 

As, for bringing TCG archetypes into the AGM format:
Majespecters
lswarms w/o Ophion or Origin
Iron Chains
U.A.s

Yosenjus

 

All these seem fine to add imo.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

Yosens got added by Draco, but yeah, everything else can use the added votes.

[Draconus297]

Jesus, let's see now.

 

The queue went from this:

Majespecter (2/3 - Sakura, Nyx)

lswarm, bar Origin and Ophion (2/4 - Nyx, Dova)

Qli, bar Genius (2/3 - Dova, Sakura)

U.A. (2/3 - Sakura, Tinkerer)

Lightsworn, bar Curious (1/3 - Kyumi)

Thunder Dragon (2/3 - Tinkerer, Sakura)

Iron Chain (1/3 - Tinkerer)

 

To this:

lswarm, bar Origin and Ophion (3/4 - Nyx, Dova, Uggla)

Qli, bar Genius (2/3 - Dova, Sakura)

Thunder Dragon (2/3 - Tinkerer, Sakura)

Iron Chain (2/3 - Tinkerer)

Lightsworn, bar Curious (1/3 - Kyumi)

 

Majespecters and U.A. in the card pool.

 

Well. Looks like I need to go find the banlist, just to Limit(?) Kirin.

 

INTERNAL SCREAMING

[Dova]

https://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/375243-agmwritten-deck-constrictor-milling-reptiles-99/

One of my side projects is finally done! Time to go full power onto Terriform and our group project.

Is the OP up to date in terms of members? Just asking for the eventual group PM.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

At the moment, members are:

- You

- Me

- Draco

- Nyx

- Kyumi

- Uggla

- Sleepy

 

Just send the PM to Kyumi too in the event he shows up, but chances of him coming are low at the moment. With Sleepy, uh, just ping her that sheʻs still in the club and to contribute stuff, I guess.