Pendulum = Search

[Tinkerer]

Ok, so I've dabbled with pendulums since they first came out and besides making odd decks like Normal Pendulum Exodia, I never really tried using them, well... Fully.

 

It was only today when my little brother wanted me to build him a pendulum deck on ygopro that I realized just how many searchers there are for pendulums:

 

Wavering Eyes

Majester ... Dracoslayer

Luster ... Dracoslayer

Odd-Eyes Pendulum Dragon

Magical Abductor

 

...among others. And of course there are more specific/archetype limited searchers that can still end up being used ridiculously outside their limits:

 

Sky Arc

Pendulum Call

That-new-spell-that-searches-Dracoslayer/rulers

P-pal Skullcrobat

P-pal Sorcerer

Dragoons of Draconia

Igknights

Majespecters

 

And the Pot of Riches + Echo Oscillation for drawing. Basically, is the pendulum mechanic anything more than a plussing mechanic?

[Toffee.]

is the pendulum mechanic anything more than a plussing mechanic?

Ideally, it's a gimmick that you set-up in order to Summon a bunch of monsters all at once. However, given the fact that Ygo likes to push itself to the extreme, of course it would end up being a continuous resource engine that you can always mooch off of.

Though, personally I'd to love to see them play around with more ideas involving it, instead of just 'You can Summon everything', since there is a lot of untapped potential in that mechanic.

[Blake]

Um... It was obvious from the start it was just a +X every turn.

 

The problem with the mechanic is that it requires tou to "-2" to set the scales. Searching and the like mitigates this. Cards like Performapal Monkeyboard (will see use in anything with the Ppal engine) and Qliphort Scout are 1-card pendulum scales for this reason. Searchers exist to mitigate the advantage you lose and the setup you need to REALLY explode.

 

In addition, the mechanic needs "specific combos" in order to work. Y'know, Low Scale/High Scale sets. Searching allows them to do this much more easily.

 

Luster Pendulum just does it for easy value, and stupid levels of synergy with Performapal Pendulum Sorcerer, not to mention Majespecters and what it makes.

 

As a generic mechanic, you won't be PSing non-Pendulums very often. Mist Valley Apex Avian is about the most value you're going to get like that. Performapal Secondonkey also falls under this, as do cards like Spiritual Whisper to a lesser degree.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Considering OEPD, it is clear this was the intent from the start. This isn't some "oh no this mechanic meant for 'X' has been corrupted!"

Zefra are a poor excuse for pendulum, to be perfectly honest.

[Tinkerer]

I am just surprised at how they treated this mechanic, at least in comparison with the others. I mean, early fusion/synchro/Xyz Monsters didn't pay for themselves. They always were investments. Ones that you hoped would pay itself out to be greater than the original parts. Pendulum never went that route. Maybe it's simply pandering to the current speed of the game, or maybe it's just me, but I never expected so many "instant scale setup" cards so soon after the mechanic's implementation...

[Blake]

I am just surprised at how they treated this mechanic, at least in comparison with the others. I mean, early fusion/synchro/Xyz Monsters didn't pay for themselves. They always were investments. Ones that you hoped would pay itself out to be greater than the original parts. Pendulum never went that route. Maybe it's simply pandering to the current speed of the game, or maybe it's just me, but I never expected so many "instant scale setup" cards so soon after the mechanic's implementation...

Fusion is from when the game was slow as balls. And, funnily enough, at least in the OCG due to smaller sets at first, Flame Swordsman was the best monster in the game for a little while.

 

Early Synchro: It was paired up with cards that came out at the end of GX that completely accelerated power creep in an absurd amount, which led to the mechanic being seen as way overpowered. Mostly DAD's fault, though, with E-Tele/Krebons and Plaguespreader (i think slightly later) as the notable means to make the mechanic more live.

 

Early Xyz: initial release made it a decent strength option for decks, especially in the TCG where TGU was released. Then Rescue Rabbit was in the /second/ set, and made Dolkka and Laggia far too easily. In fact, at the equivalent time of Arc-V getting Crossed Souls, Xyz got Hieratics. So they definitely accelerated at a faster pace, with the exception of Qli, which is more comparable to the Rabbit example.

[Sleepy]

I agree that it wasn't surprising at all that the Pendulum Mechanic has been accelerating as much as it has over this year. 

Many of us want our brand new mechanics to be something supporting the already existing pool, addressing things from an interesting angle and doing so in a way that is not so straight forwardly aggressive. However, Konami never moves that way. Synchros accelerated the game to the point some people said it was ruining the game. Xyzs boosted up power creep overall in a way that made many miss the Synchros. Then now Pendulum Summon is undergoing that part of the cycle.

 

 

 

It is incredible how in a way the mechanic starts off trying to fix an issue with the previous generation of cards.

GX had a bunch of destruction at the end of its time to powercreep on the brute force often used in decks during DM's time.

Synchros started off with anti-destruction in response.

Xyz times started off with the promise that the Graveyard would stop being as abused.

Right now it is hard to explain very well, but I'll get to it.

 

 

Just an observation....

[Progenitor]

It honestly just feels lazy.  There could be loads of ways to make Pendulums a bit more balanced.  But we just keep getting searchScale.card after searchScale.card after searchScale.card and so nothing even matters anymore.  Pendulum is an inherently degenerate mechanic that has definately not taken the game in a beneficial direction IMO.

 

But then we get cards like Bujin Hiruko and I realize that amidst the psychos running Konami there exists a select few who have some creativity and sense of balance to them.  But the stones have already been cast.  Unless Konami, for the first time, admits pendulum was a bad idea and re-structures it (that would literally never happen but holy sheet what if it did), we just have to ride this power wave to it's apex and see how hard the crest crashes.

[Blake]

It IS lazy as hell, true. Honestly, I think there are some well-done pendulums. Abyss Ragnarok, the Symphonic pendulums, some Zefras (even if they're not good support for their native decks except for the YZ ones which are goddamn amazing). The problem is that they get eclipsed by all these cards focused just on plussing and successively swarming the field. Pendulums should be a minority of the cards in a deck...

abyss ragnarok is not a well done pendulum

 

it's a broken one that encourages using pendulums as more versatile spells, as opposed to monsters with a side effect of being a spell

 

the difference between the two is the sheer power level of that spell, while having a better card type than straight-up spells.

 

Qliphort Scout and Performapal Monkeyboard are other examples of this.

[The Highlander]

abyss ragnarok is not a well done pendulum

 

it's a broken one that encourages using pendulums as more versatile spells, as opposed to monsters with a side effect of being a spell

 

the difference between the two is the sheer power level of that spell, while having a better card type than straight-up spells.

 

Qliphort Scout and Performapal Monkeyboard are other examples of this.

Scout and Monkeyboard are also examples for pendulums, which are just designed to be the only one you place as low/high end scale and are awful design because of that, however there is nothing new we have not seen yet:

Qliphort (relying on one card for the pend zone etc., being straightforward like cat synchro and dino rabbit) / cat synchro / dino rabbit ... the typical test for the mechanic to see how far they can go and how that kind of overpowered design works at that time (basicly the test time).

Igknight and Majespecters (another test to see how pure pendulum effects and pure monster effects fare (both (in the case of igknigths only a bit) overpowered at that).

Majespecters and Performages and Pals / inzektors and wind-up  ... one just rushing into the opponent to smash him/ lockign him out of the game turn 1 and the other one trying to prevent him from even playing.

Do I need to go on ?

Fine ... eventually we will get a very interesting deck like tengu plants or dragon rulers, which, while being good design only looking at them, are ridiculously imbalanced for their format.

It happened and it will likely happen again, over half happened already.

Of course Pendulums have tons of searches, looking at the fact the mechanic requires 2 kinds of main deck monsters (1 pendulum with high sclae and one with a low scale (at least 2 lower)) it was obvious from the beginning that we would get much searching and while a few could now argue the kind of searching is unbalanced one can simply respond that the searchers themselves are terrible design ... a few examples:

1.) Scout (an once per turn free +1, while still fitting the high end position in the deck, trampolynx abuse was no wonder)

2.) Monkeyboard same as above, really the exact same problem

3.) Pendulum Wizard (should have honestly been a non-pendulum or be banished if leaving the field after activating the effect (also being unusable for xyz summons to prevent sharking around that limitation)

4.) Insight Magician (just being an outright +1 rank 4 xyz mat is just dumb, if he would at least banish himself or shuffle himself back into the deck, so that he was just a searcher without pluses)

                                                                                                                                           (Though he is not that terrible at 1)

 5.) Skullcrobat Joker (while stratos is still banned this monster, which is a recurring stratos is at 3)   

                                                      (Again at one he would give the deck an edge, while he would honestly still require the above mentioned Wizard nerf to be banished and no xyz material or instead just being no pendulum)

6.) Every single Majespecter (abusing the fact they can return, almost nullifying the chances of being send anywhere except the extra deck, while their spells/traps send them there to keep summoning for more abuse of the mechanic, not to mention that they do all that to prevent the opponent from playing and just downright preventing other pendulum decks from playing, so one would also need to do something similar ... just plain awful design ... they should go to 0)

7.) Performage Flame Mascot (you should all be able to tell why)

8.) Also I guess we can agree that Apex Avian should go to 0 for the exact same reasons of being directly usable to abuse the mechanic for an once per turn negation

9.) ...

 

It honestly just feels lazy.  There could be loads of ways to make Pendulums a bit more balanced.  But we just keep getting searchScale.card after searchScale.card after searchScale.card and so nothing even matters anymore.  Pendulum is an inherently degenerate mechanic that has definately not taken the game in a beneficial direction IMO.

 

But then we get cards like Bujin Hiruko and I realize that amidst the psychos running Konami there exists a select few who have some creativity and sense of balance to them.  But the stones have already been cast.  Unless Konami, for the first time, admits pendulum was a bad idea and re-structures it (that would literally never happen but holy s*** what if it did), we just have to ride this power wave to it's apex and see how hard the crest crashes.

Searching scales is a necessity and not degenerate, unless said scale is a scout/monkeyboard-type card, your argument of it being degenerate is the same that was used for xyzs, synchros and hey what about saying the game would be better without monster effect, nor spells and traps, it would be simple without a doubt.

Hiruko is a pendulum card for a deck, which does not want it for the summon itself.

Your argument about it being degenerate because of the mechanic it is on its own is (as above mentioned) the same as the fear of a few players before pendulums/xyzs/synchros were made part of the game.

A mechanic on its own cannot be degenerate, it is only the result of the combination of mechanic with cards for that mechanic, however the cards themselves are just plain stuppidly designed for the mechanic and meant to abuse it, so it is not the mechanics fault, but rather the kind of tools it gets.

The mechanic itself can have positive effects (especially pendulums), just like the way D/Ds can be with the right support from the reiji structure deck released during the month of December, the main problem is that they design it in form of a chain, a few cards are meant as scales and the others are terrible at it and most are meant as monsters (while downright outclassing the competition of non-pendulums at that), however all should be able to fit the scale position, so not only the scales can see diversity during a game, but so that they would not require ridiculous amounts of searching.

On top of that Pendulum monsters should not be simple recyclable bosses, but more tools to support other playstyles.

 

Pendulums should be a minority of the cards in a deck...

Not necessarily, but they should not be the strikeforce of the deck, the problem is mainly that the monster part of pendulums is currently powerful enough, to invalid the necessity of non-pendulum plays, just take performapals as an example, they only get awful non-pendulum monsters and their pendulums are designed to also be better monsters, instead of mainly scales to support the non-pendulums (or other mechanics to certain extends).

The above mentioned "problem of searching scales" is not a "real problem" on its own, it is the fact that those scales are also just as good usable as monsters ) (or scout scales with wavering eyes).

 

Pendulum Bosses are also in a certain way alright, but not in the way that they just invalid all other kind of boss monsters, by doing the same (we know this hardly happens that they are equally strong) or just outright being stronger, on top of their pendulum status, but that is not the main problem right now, it is the fact that those decks are able to either go the performage route and spamm materials for another summon method and rush to victory (abuseing completely imbalanced pendulums, such as wizard and mascot) or go the majespecter route and just try to prevent your opponent from playing (an exampel would also be the floodgate abuse of qli).

[Blake]

Scout and Monkeyboard are also examples for pendulums, which are just designed to be the only one you place as low/high end scale and are awful design because of that, however there is nothing new we have not seen yet:

Qliphort (relying on one card for the pend zone etc., being straightforward like cat synchro and dino rabbit) / cat synchro / dino rabbit ... the typical test for the mechanic to see how far they can go and how that kind of overpowered design works at that time (basicly the test time).

Igknight and Majespecters (another test to see how pure pendulum effects and pure monster effects fare (both (in the case of igknigths only a bit) overpowered at that).

Majespecters and Performages and Pals / inzektors and wind-up  ... one just rushing into the opponent to smash him/ lockign him out of the game turn 1 and the other one trying to prevent him from even playing.

Do I need to go on ?

Fine ... eventually we will get a very interesting deck like tengu plants or dragon rulers, which, while being good design only looking at them, are ridiculously imbalanced for their format.

It happened and it will likely happen again, over half happened already.

Of course Pendulums have tons of searches, looking at the fact the mechanic requires 2 kinds of main deck monsters (1 pendulum with high sclae and one with a low scale (at least 2 lower)) it was obvious from the beginning that we would get much searching and while a few could now argue the kind of searching is unbalanced one can simply respond that the searchers themselves are terrible design ... a few examples:

1.) Scout (an once per turn free +1, while still fitting the high end position in the deck, trampolynx abuse was no wonder)

2.) Monkeyboard same as above, really the exact same problem

3.) Pendulum Wizard (should have honestly been a non-pendulum or be banished if leaving the field after activating the effect (also being unusable for xyz summons to prevent sharking around that limitation)

4.) Insight Magician (just being an outright +1 rank 4 xyz mat is just dumb, if he would at least banish himself or shuffle himself back into the deck, so that he was just a searcher without pluses)

                                                                                                                                           (Though he is not that terrible at 1)

 5.) Skullcrobat Joker (while stratos is still banned this monster, which is a recurring stratos is at 3)   

                                                      (Again at one he would give the deck an edge, while he would honestly still require the above mentioned Wizard nerf to be banished and no xyz material or instead just being no pendulum)

6.) Every single Majespecter (abusing the fact they can return, almost nullifying the chances of being send anywhere except the extra deck, while their spells/traps send them there to keep summoning for more abuse of the mechanic, not to mention that they do all that to prevent the opponent from playing and just downright preventing other pendulum decks from playing, so one would also need to do something similar ... just plain awful design ... they should go to 0)

7.) Performage Flame Mascot (you should all be able to tell why)

8.) Also I guess we can agree that Apex Avian should go to 0 for the exact same reasons of being directly usable to abuse the mechanic for an once per turn negation

9.) ...

First off, use more spaces. Your post is a mess and painful to read, because of the lack of spacing.

 

Carying on... Question: WHY THE funk ARE YOU QUOTING ME? What did I say to make you reply to me with this? I didn't tackle anything other than telling someone that Abyss Ragnarok is not a well designed Pendulum, and it's often called so by players who don't actually grasp why it's not. Sure, I said Scout/Monkeyboard were just more powerful spells... But that was a given.

 

And earlier in the thread, I covered how Qli = Dino Rabbit, and Igknight would be along the lines of Hieratic, so, again, why quote me to say this?

 

I also explained that this is a 'combo' mechanic, and that's why it has so much searching. To make the mechanic work.

 

You are telling the one person who has showed understanding of this cycle and how Pendulum is designed... about the cycle and how Pendulum is designed.

 

Read full threads before quoting people and trying to tell them stuff they already know.

 

Moving on...

1. well duh

2. Actually wrong. Monkeyboard's main search is not upper scales. Sure, if you need them, you find them, but its main search tends to be either Sorcerer or Friendonkey (in Pure). As a semi-generic card it will be a bit more common to search high scales, but Sorcerer is still the main target. Unlike Scout, it's used in order to finish setting up and then make the scale, where Scout is generally used to first make a scale (if needed) and then set up. It's an inverse Scout, and it can only be used the turn it's played, though it is still bananas.

3. You are going way overboard here. The Xyz restriction only changes things in Purepal, as only Purepal really plays a means to recycle Sorcerer from the Grave. All you have to do is make it only search when SS'd from hand or Graveyard, and then it's strong but not the broken funk it is.

4. yeah, this is one of the ones I'm going to skip, cause it's obvious you're just going t ostate obvious facts instead of explaining anything

5. Uh, no. It is not a 'recurring Stratos', and cannot be compared in that manner. Hell, Stratos is more easily recycled while also being live. This is a 1-time search that happens to recur as a beater. It's really not that bad, and the Normal Summon is a major drawback, as you generally have a lot of cards you want to NS, outside of Magician. And versatility doesn't break it. If you think Joker's a problem, I think you need to reevaluate how you look at things.

 

6. see 4

7. Well I mean, yeah. It's broken because of other cards that exist, as well as the lack of the text Qiuniu has. You're still just stating the obvious.

8. Give. Reasoning. I don't disagree, given the locking capability it has when a generic 8 scale exists, but you're just spouting baseless info.

9. um okay

 

Seriously, read before you post, give actual reasoning and thoughts instead of regurgitated info, and understand context.

[The Highlander]

First off, use more spaces. Your post is a mess and painful to read, because of the lack of spacing.

 

Carying on... Question: WHY THE f*** ARE YOU QUOTING ME? What did I say to make you reply to me with this? I didn't tackle anything other than telling someone that Abyss Ragnarok is not a well designed Pendulum, and it's often called so by players who don't actually grasp why it's not. Sure, I said Scout/Monkeyboard were just more powerful spells... But that was a given.

 

And earlier in the thread, I covered how Qli = Dino Rabbit, and Igknight would be along the lines of Hieratic, so, again, why quote me to say this?

 

I also explained that this is a 'combo' mechanic, and that's why it has so much searching. To make the mechanic work.

 

You are telling the one person who has showed understanding of this cycle and how Pendulum is designed... about the cycle and how Pendulum is designed.

 

Read full threads before quoting people and trying to tell them stuff they already know.

 

Moving on...

1. well duh

2. Actually wrong. Monkeyboard's main search is not upper scales. Sure, if you need them, you find them, but its main search tends to be either Sorcerer or Friendonkey (in Pure). As a semi-generic card it will be a bit more common to search high scales, but Sorcerer is still the main target. Unlike Scout, it's used in order to finish setting up and then make the scale, where Scout is generally used to first make a scale (if needed) and then set up. It's an inverse Scout, and it can only be used the turn it's played, though it is still bananas.

3. You are going way overboard here. The Xyz restriction only changes things in Purepal, as only Purepal really plays a means to recycle Sorcerer from the Grave. All you have to do is make it only search when SS'd from hand or Graveyard, and then it's strong but not the broken f*** it is.

4. yeah, this is one of the ones I'm going to skip, cause it's obvious you're just going t ostate obvious facts instead of explaining anything

5. Uh, no. It is not a 'recurring Stratos', and cannot be compared in that manner. Hell, Stratos is more easily recycled while also being live. This is a 1-time search that happens to recur as a beater. It's really not that bad, and the Normal Summon is a major drawback, as you generally have a lot of cards you want to NS, outside of Magician. And versatility doesn't break it. If you think Joker's a problem, I think you need to reevaluate how you look at things.

 

6. see 4

7. Well I mean, yeah. It's broken because of other cards that exist, as well as the lack of the text Qiuniu has. You're still just stating the obvious.

8. Give. Reasoning. I don't disagree, given the locking capability it has when a generic 8 scale exists, but you're just spouting baseless info.

9. um okay

 

Seriously, read before you post, give actual reasoning and thoughts instead of regurgitated info, and understand context.

Well the entire thing was meant to step by step show those who still did not see it, all I was actually quoting was you saying scout and monkeyboard are awfully designed.

First monekyboard is the same problem as scout by just giving more searches for playing it, it should be obvious it is not their high end, it is the low end, which searches more monsters just for placing it, it is the same reason scout abuses wavering eyes.

3.) Well perhaps the xyz restriction is a bit much, however the card just generates pluses without any real costs (also triggering other cards like mascot in the process)

5.) It is in the way it afterwards is not just a 1.8k level 4 body, of course stratos is still easier to recur and can trigger if specialed, however the design of this card is just ridiculous, it is not on its own a real problem, however it is awful design, I was just stating it is the kind of place a card like it usually gets (it mostly is a similar case to insight, the card does really create problems, but it just designed to be free rank 4 fodder on top of searcing the cards one requires).

8.) Again that was a list of cards abusing the pendulum mechanic, apex avian just downright limits the possibilities of further design, as long as it exists generic scale 8s have to deal with the curse of being unnecessarily restricted to avoid more generic use, as this card would otherwise turn itself into an infernity barrier/ ... which just needs to be summoned and then recycles itself for further use.

9.) Did you honestly expect me there to name every single card which abuses the mechanic ?

 

... those were just examples of cards directly abusing the fact they are pendulum monsters

Though I have to admit I maybe should have moved it down a bit, so it was more clearly that it was mostly meant to be an answer ot the progenitor and not you.

[Progenitor]

Searching scales is a necessity and not degenerate, unless said scale is a scout/monkeyboard-type card, your argument of it being degenerate is the same that was used for xyzs, synchros and hey what about saying the game would be better without monster effect, nor spells and traps, it would be simple without a doubt.

Hiruko is a pendulum card for a deck, which does not want it for the summon itself.

Your argument about it being degenerate because of the mechanic it is on its own is (as above mentioned) the same as the fear of a few players before pendulums/xyzs/synchros were made part of the game.

A mechanic on its own cannot be degenerate, it is only the result of the combination of mechanic with cards for that mechanic, however the cards themselves are just plain stuppidly designed for the mechanic and meant to abuse it, so it is not the mechanics fault, but rather the kind of tools it gets.

The mechanic itself can have positive effects (especially pendulums), just like the way D/Ds can be with the right support from the reiji structure deck released during the month of December, the main problem is that they design it in form of a chain, a few cards are meant as scales and the others are terrible at it and most are meant as monsters (while downright outclassing the competition of non-pendulums at that), however all should be able to fit the scale position, so not only the scales can see diversity during a game, but so that they would not require ridiculous amounts of searching.

On top of that Pendulum monsters should not be simple recyclable bosses, but more tools to support other playstyles.

 

uhhhhhhhh no

 

The mechanic itself is inherently degenerate. Why?   Because you have recurring resources.  So long as you have a set scale, and your opponent does nothing to disrupt that scale, you have a near infinite amount of monsters and options no matter how much advantage you throw away establishing that extra deck.  That's not good.  In fact the only balance to pendulums in the past was that the scales were difficult to obtain in the first place, and with the overall selection of pendulums being so limited, you usually invested too many resources to get back should you actually pendulum summon.

 

But now we have Pendulum call to search and protect our scales with 1 card, scales that search monsters to search the other scale, monsters that destroy themselves to the extra deck that set more scales and give you more things to actually pendulums summon every turn search search search search search search PLAY A DRAW ENGINE EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE JESUS.

 

Pendulums inherently are degenerate, which is why they were handled so cautiously in the beginning.  Their power could very easily be thrown completely out of control if the inherent (degenerateness?) of the mechanic was not respected.  Konami then decided funk YOU I DO WHAT I WANT and broke that pinhead balance.

[The Highlander]

uhhhhhhhh no

 

The mechanic itself is inherently degenerate. Why?   Because you have recurring resources.  So long as you have a set scale, and your opponent does nothing to disrupt that scale, you have a near infinite amount of monsters and options no matter how much advantage you throw away establishing that extra deck.  That's not good.  In fact the only balance to pendulums in the past was that the scales were difficult to obtain in the first place, and with the overall selection of pendulums being so limited, you usually invested too many resources to get back should you actually pendulum summon.

 

But now we have Pendulum call to search and protect our scales with 1 card, scales that search monsters to search the other scale, monsters that destroy themselves to the extra deck that set more scales and give you more things to actually pendulums summon every turn search search search search search search PLAY A DRAW ENGINE EVERY ONCE IN AWHILE JESUS.

 

Pendulums inherently are degenerate, which is why they were handled so cautiously in the beginning.  Their power could very easily be thrown completely out of control if the inherent (degenerateness?) of the mechanic was not respected.  Konami then decided f*** YOU I DO WHAT I WANT and broke that pinhead balance.

No the reason the balance was majorly disrupted is the idea they had of making pendulum monsters monsters as well, which are AS STRONG as non-pendulums, the problem with that is that they get the recurring advantage ON TOP OF not being that terrible to begin with, naturally floating AND also having another purpose.

Pendulums are simply only meant to support other playstyles and accelerate them, for the dedication to place scales, however they decided that the pendulum monsters you can summon are just as good (or in the case of ridiculously broken cards like performapal pendulum wizard) even better than regular monsters, ON TOP OF recurring and having effects, which are designed to abuse the fact of being multiple times summonable.

The problem is that the statuses (atk and levels for xyz (and synchro) summons) and effects of those pendulums are far too good for their design.

You should not be supposed to be able to fight by just spamming your pendulums, which are either way returning AND EVEN ABUSING THAT FACT just look at majespecters ... they even get free immunity to destruction effects and targeting, ALL OF THEM, not to mention they get cards to prevent your opponent from setting a board, countering pendulum summons to place multiple monsters and other cards to deal with non-pendulum summons.

You are in one way right, the current abomination of pendulum decks is degenerate, however as a support engine they are alright, only that konami starts to distance them more and more from a supporting role, into being the only thing playable and necessary.

They start to contradict the very purpose their mechanic is structured about.

Pendulums as monsters SHOULD SIMPLY NOT BE THIS GOOD.

[Progenitor]

No the reason the balance was majorly disrupted is the idea they had of making pendulum monsters monsters as well, which are AS STRONG as non-pendulums, the problem with that is that they get the recurring advantage ON TOP OF not being that terrible to begin with, naturally floating AND also having another purpose.

Pendulums are simply only meant to support other playstyles and accelerate them, for the dedication to place scales, however they decided that the pendulum monsters you can summon are just as good (or in the case of ridiculously broken cards like performapal pendulum wizard) even better than regular monsters, ON TOP OF recurring and having effects, which are designed to abuse the fact of being multiple times summonable.

The problem is that the statuses (atk and levels for xyz (and synchro) summons) and effects of those pendulums are far too good for their design.

You should not be supposed to be able to fight by just spamming your pendulums, which are either way returning AND EVEN ABUSING THAT FACT just look at majespecters ... they even get free immunity to destruction effects and targeting, ALL OF THEM, not to mention they get cards to prevent your opponent from setting a board, countering pendulum summons to place multiple monsters and other cards to deal with non-pendulum summons.

You are in one way right, the current abomination of pendulum decks is degenerate, however as a support engine they are alright, only that konami starts to distance them more and more from a supporting role, into being the only thing playable and necessary.

They start to contradict the very purpose their mechanic is structured about.

Pendulums as monsters SHOULD SIMPLY NOT BE THIS GOOD.

 

We aren't actually arguing two different things.  The only difference between our arguments is that are definitions of degenerate are somewhat different.  In my mind any concept that freely reuses resources and allows decks to instantly splash the field for no reason and establish a nigh unbeatable field is degenerate.  Now the fact that they were degenerate was balanced by the fact that they were difficult to splash into some decks, and their effects were rather bland.  Their only real purpose was to make big plays a tiny bit easier at the cost of resourses.  As soon as you have a consistent method of replenishing those resources with almost no effort, then the only thing balancing that concept is gone.

 

And this is exemplified by the current pendulum decks.  Majispecters are nearly impossible to disrupt their resource replenishment, P-Pals and Qli find their scales and plays so incredibly easy it's stupid.  That's both of the counterbalancing techniques gone right there.  Imagine if there existed a synchro that revived it's materials for free on summon.  How broken would that be?  Insanely.  But that's exactly what the current pendulums are doing.

 

It seemed like Konami had a plan when they first started making pendulums.  Zefra are actually pretty fairly designed (they literally only act as scales in the scales and instead rely on their monster effects to make plays), but after that it just gets completely out of control, and without some HEAVY bans Pendulum will never again have it's inherent degererateness reeled in.

[Blake]

It seemed like Konami had a plan when they first started making pendulums.  Zefra are actually pretty fairly designed (they literally only act as scales in the scales and instead rely on their monster effects to make plays), but after that it just gets completely out of control, and without some HEAVY bans Pendulum will never again have it's inherent degererateness reeled in.

Uh, hell no. Under design is still very much poor design.

 

If these were made as a series (All named Zefra, but no real support to tie them together, and thus more open scales), that'd be one thing. Then they could be more attuned to their decks, actually have Pendulum effects/not have the stupid restrictions, and be better designed all around.

 

You could even keep the restrictions on the monster effects, but with the exception of the Yang Zing and sorta the tellars, they're awful. The YZ are the only ones that could realistically be considered well done, and that's because of just how desperately that deck needed the support. Shaddolls aren't even Shaddolls, they're shitty Zefra only for the most part.

 

If they had small pendulum effects and/or the removal of the restriction, instead of being gimmicky as hell, they'd be much better. Again, under design is just as bad as over design.

[Progenitor]

Uh, hell no. Under design is still very much poor design.

 

If these were made as a series (All named Zefra, but no real support to tie them together, and thus more open scales), that'd be one thing. Then they could be more attuned to their decks, actually have Pendulum effects/not have the stupid restrictions, and be better designed all around.

 

You could even keep the restrictions on the monster effects, but with the exception of the Yang Zing and sorta the tellars, they're awful. The YZ are the only ones that could realistically be considered well done, and that's because of just how desperately that deck needed the support. Shaddolls aren't even Shaddolls, they're shitty Zefra only for the most part.

 

If they had small pendulum effects and/or the removal of the restriction, instead of being gimmicky as hell, they'd be much better. Again, under design is just as bad as over design.

 

I said fairly designed not well designed.  Yeah they are pretty sheet, but the fact that they are sheet counterbalances the inherent degenerate nature of Pendulums.

 

Essentially I was trying to illustrate that the only way for Pendulums to truly be toned down is for the Pendulum cards themselves to be toned down in accordance with the ease of scale, summon, and strength of monster's summoned.  Zefras aren't too strong as monsters, but they have the ability to go into a very wide variety of options, and their S/T lineup has a few powerful players.  Additionally said S?T Line-up (mainly the field spell) allow for relative ease setting up a scale and going from there.

 

The deck has some ok monster cards and can search their scales relatively well (well faster than any other pendulum based deck except Qli at the time of their release anyway), and have a wide variety of somewhat situational options off their summon.  To counterbalance this ease of field flooding, they can't be abused in other decks (except of their own archetype branch) and their monster effects, for the most part, kinda blow.  They were designed with the intention of making a pendulum based deck that didn't rely on or break the pendulum mechanic.  Was it successful?  Hell no.  Zefras are garbage.  But it was a good first try, and from there they just stopped trying.