Discussion: Meta Game and Competitive Play.

[flowerviolence]

So I was watching a local tournament the other day. (And subsequently YouTube'd some official tournaments.)

 

Then I found out what Meta meant. I then noticed how most of the players ran any 1 of 5 or so Archtypes. That seems boring to me.

 

And I personally think it is stupid. Here is my reason and my (not important, but will still tell it) story.

 

I got back into YuGiOh this past November, on my birthday to be exact. November 21st. Yep save the date and buy me the latest pack please <3 

 

Anyways so my brother bought me Joey's World box and The Egyptian God Box or whatever that one is called. I gathered all the nostalgia I dropped on the floor into one big pile, and it fueled a still running engine that is my passion for YuGiOh.

 

The point is, joining into this (Fandom? Group? Nerd-Kingdom?) wasn't exactly great online. If I wanted to play competitively (Or "Ranked") I would be met with people who ran Nekroz, Qliphorts, etc. (And if you haven't seen my posts I love weird or crappy cards like Super Dreadnought and the Agents Archtype, which don't stand up to Meta.)

 

And if I went to Unrated, I will most likely play someone who is using a Meta Deck still, Someone who is playing an annoying deck (Burn, Exodia, etc.), or someone who just doesn't know how to play. Every now and then will I get a fun player.

 

Why can't there be a place where people use fun, interesting decks, (Or non-Meta decks.)? Why can't people bust out an obscure or irrelevant archtype? That's what I find fun about this game at least (Hell, take Agents for example!) 

 

Again, if you have seen my card posts, they are all in Casual and not in Advanced.

 

 

 

TL:DR I HATE META

 

Anyways, what do you like/hate about Meta? 

[ihop]

ok

[Maeriberii Haan]

Another one of these threads...

 

Moved to Banlist and Theories since it's not a discussion on the concept of metagame and competitive play in general.

[Just Crouton]

Why can't there be a place where people use fun, interesting decks, (Or non-Meta decks.)? Why can't people bust out an obscure or irrelevant archtype?
 

 

Because it's better to win.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Because it's better to win.

 

Literally this.

 

If you don't want to win. fine. But don't fault people for using what is best.

[mitchermitcher]

I think that a game in which everyone tries their very best to optimize their chances of winning against each other, where everyone is there not necessarily to be nice but to win, I just think that sort of environment has a charm to it. It's more cool, I suppose.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

Waaah.

 

If you don't like playing competitively, or at least a Tier Deck, then don't play the game. You don't have a right to complain about the Meta when you don't even play the game as a game.

[Krein]

I honestly don't see why you guys are giving him smack over this. I'm kind of surprised too, since I thought most people here also had a distaste for the meta and how it affects the game.

 

Even if it'll be considered noobish/salty/whatever you people use to describe these sentiments, I agree with the OP. Competition and giving decks advantages over other isn't the gripe here since it's obviously what makes the game fun and worth playing, it's the way the metadecks are so powercreeped that A LOT of decks that are below them have a very difficult time keeping up with them, if at all unless they go out of their way to design themselves to duel them specifically (which can sometimes just detract away from the main focus of the deck). It can sometimes be fun to play with or against these decks, but it does get boring really fast to the point where you just sigh in annoyance the moment you see a Scout or Brionac show up.

 

As for playing older, more nostalgic decks, that's fine, but people can't honestly expect for those to contend even with current day "nonmeta" decks like Masked HEROs, Fire Kings, Mermails, etc.

[Wildflame]

I think that a game in which everyone tries their very best to optimize their chances of winning against each other, where everyone is there not necessarily to be nice but to win, I just think that sort of environment has a charm to it. It's more cool, I suppose.

 

What Oi-chan said.

[flowerviolence]

Another one of these threads...

 

Moved to Banlist and Theories since it's not a discussion on the concept of metagame and competitive play in general.

Thank you, wasn't 100% sure where to put this. And sorry I posted another one of these kinds of threads :l

 

I honestly don't see why you guys are giving him smack over this. I'm kind of surprised too, since I thought most people here also had a distaste for the meta and how it affects the game.

 

Even if it'll be considered noobish/salty/whatever you people use to describe these sentiments, I agree with the OP. Competition and giving decks advantages over other isn't the gripe here since it's obviously what makes the game fun and worth playing, it's the way the metadecks are so powercreeped that A LOT of decks that are below them have a very difficult time keeping up with them, if at all unless they go out of their way to design themselves to duel them specifically (which can sometimes just detract away from the main focus of the deck). It can sometimes be fun to play with or against these decks, but it does get boring really fast to the point where you just sigh in annoyance the moment you see a Scout or Brionac show up.

 

As for playing older, more nostalgic decks, that's fine, but people can't honestly expect for those to contend even with current day "nonmeta" decks like Masked HEROs, Fire Kings, Mermails, etc.

 

You pinpointed it. Kinda.

 

It's not really that I don't like competitive (Which I don't,) but it's more that I wish there were more people out there that liked to duel with fun decks. Not "Oh no, this guy is playing BA's" And I mean in person more than online, because I am sure there are plenty of others possibly even on this site that agree with this. 

 

OR maybe I just don't like doing things competitively? Whatever the case may be, I didn't expect to get hammered hard about it. (Though now that I look at it, it does seem like I am just crying about Meta and how my beloved Agents will never stand a chance.)

 

And my thing is that no, I don't like competitive or Meta, so I will go to unranked, but either find the same thing or dimwitted players. (I can't really play a guy in my town without facing Nekroz/Shaddoll/Qliphorts/Tellarknights/etc.)

 

Also here is an example of why I find Meta boring. (If you don't care anymore, don't bother looking.)

 

[spoiler=this] Yueqi Zhu – 9-1 with Nekroz

Aaron Furman – 9-1 with Nekroz
Walter Jule – 9-1 with Nekroz
Luka Soskis – 8-0-2 with Nekroz
Jason Chu – 8-1-1 with Nekroz
Amanuel Yihdego – 8-2 with Nekroz
Yilun Wu – 8-2 with Nekroz
Tannner Von Difloe – 8-2 with Nekroz
Joseph Chou – 8-2 with Nekroz
Rostislav Elkun – 8-2 with Qliphort
Omar Daoudi – 8-2 with Nekroz
Edward Apaipong – 8-2 with Burning Abyss
Sam Johanson – 8-2 with Qliphort
Noah Reichardt – 8-2 with Burning Abyss
Elvis Vu – 8-2 withNekroz
Liam Lamont – 8-2 with Nekroz
Chancy Wigglestove – 8-2 with Nekroz
Xinyu Jiang – 8-2 with Nekroz
Mitchell Martin – 8-2 with Qliphort
Esala Wathathantrige – 8-2 with Nekroz
Tahmid Zaman – 8-2 with Nekroz
Destin Kaspi – 8-2 with Qliphorts
Matthew Wright – 8-2 with Qliphorts
Anthony Ekcroth – 7-1-2 with Nekroz
Barrett Keys – 7-1-2 with Nekroz
Steven De Lara – 7-2-1 with Nekroz
Michael Stibbins – 7-2-1 with Nekroz
Bradley Philip – 7-2-1 with Qliphort
Jose Gonzalez– 7-2-1 with Burning Abyss
Robert Honeycutt – 7-2-1 with Burning Abyss
Kritin Dee – 7-2-1 with Nekroz
Zhe Sun – 7-2-1 with Nekroz [/spoiler]

[Blake]

The thing is, you can do both.

Playing a fun deck and playing a deck that is, at the very least, fine-tuned to be as competitive as possible doesn't have to be different.

First off, there are plenty of decent pet decks. They may not be the best decks, but they can perform conistently enough, especially if built well, for a fun casual experience.

Then there's the fact that certain top decks can be very fun. For example, a LOT of people love Shaddoll. Even for me, it's the one competitive deck I've truly called a favorite. It's hard to explain, but the cards are something that a lot of people find fun to play while also being a good deck.

Then there's the fun of just winning, which is fun in its own right.

Meta and fun are not mutually exclusive, just as competitive and fun are not.

[flowerviolence]

The thing is, you can do both.

Playing a fun deck and playing a deck that is, at the very least, fine-tuned to be as competitive as possible doesn't have to be different.

First off, there are plenty of decent pet decks. They may not be the best decks, but they can perform conistently enough, especially if built well, for a fun casual experience.

Then there's the fact that certain top decks can be very fun. For example, a LOT of people love Shaddoll. Even for me, it's the one competitive deck I've truly called a favorite. It's hard to explain, but the cards are something that a lot of people find fun to play while also being a good deck.

Then there's the fun of just winning, which is fun in its own right.

Meta and fun are not mutually exclusive, just as competitive and fun are not.

Thanks first of all to be one of the few to provide a legit debate. 

 

And I suppose you're right there. (Though I can't say I have played Shaddolls so I may have to try them.)

 

I've been told to check out Fluffals too, since they can OTK. 

 

Though I don't prioritize winning, at least not until around mid-duel. I more or so love pulling unknown or obscure combos, or just use cards I personally love to play. My favorite combo is definitely Pulling out two Super Dreadnoughts in one turn <3 Again thanks for posting something more than "Don't hate the game hate yourself because you suck at the game."

[mitchermitcher]

 "Don't hate the game hate yourself because you suck at the game."

Literally no one has posted this.

[flowerviolence]

Literally no one has posted this.

Which is why I didn't quote anyone at all. I was over exaggerating. By a lot.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

There's nothing wrong with using your favorite cards in a match, but just be mindful that due to recent releases that Konami made; a lot of the favorites that you enjoy playing in the past may not hold up so well against more streamlined Decks.

 

Let's say you want to play Harpies or something. Granted, they've been getting more support lately, but even so, they aren't strong enough to survive against things like Nekroz, Burning Abyss and other things (I could say U.A.s might be becoming meta with their new support cards, but we'll see here). Or if for some reason, you wanted to play Jaden-style HEROs against LS.

 

From experience playing, people want to design the Deck that gives them a good shot in winning.

This also holds in other games besides Yugioh (and even in real-life athletics). Even if it's not your favorite, if it wins, then so be it.

 

As Black mentioned, you can have fun while playing competitively (especially since there are a few top-tier Decks that people like lately).

With regards to the Shaddoll thing, rather neutral on them right now (likely because I don't play them often), but indeed they can be fun to use when built correctly (although the opponent won't like it).

 

The metagame basically exists because certain cards have proven time and time again that they are fully capable of winning; assuming you coordinate them properly.

[flowerviolence]

There's nothing wrong with using your favorite cards in a match, but just be mindful that due to recent releases that Konami made; a lot of the favorites that you enjoy playing in the past may not hold up so well against more streamlined Decks.

 

Let's say you want to play Harpies or something. Granted, they've been getting more support lately, but even so, they aren't strong enough to survive against things like Nekroz, Burning Abyss and other things (I could say U.A.s might be becoming meta with their new support cards, but we'll see here). Or if for some reason, you wanted to play Jaden-style HEROs against LS.

 

From experience playing, people want to design the Deck that gives them a good shot in winning.

This also holds in other games besides Yugioh (and even in real-life athletics). Even if it's not your favorite, if it wins, then so be it.

 

As Black mentioned, you can have fun while playing competitively (especially since there are a few top-tier Decks that people like lately).

With regards to the Shaddoll thing, rather neutral on them right now (likely because I don't play them often), but indeed they can be fun to use when built correctly (although the opponent won't like it).

 

The metagame basically exists because certain cards have proven time and time again that they are fully capable of winning; assuming you coordinate them properly.

 

It's not really that I want my decks to be Meta or that I hate how my deck can't stand to Meta, it's just that I don't want to play in a duel where I don't have a fair chance I suppose, or duel "scrubs" online that don't know how to play or break the rules on purpose. And it's worse in my town, but I will stop talking about that for the time being.

 

Like I mentioned in the first post, there are a few players I come in contact with that I love playing with, because they run fun decks or have way more than 10 to switch it up (like in my case.) I just like things to be changed, or spiced up. (I am middle-eastern, so spice is my middle name :D ) Anyways, other than that, I am not complaining about Meta or Meta users. More or so complaining that I can't duel someone that fits my fancy all the time.

[Flash Flyer - Sakura]

You can always ask that your opponent not use a meta Deck on DN, but then you risk not getting an opponent because likely most people are building metagame things.

But yeah, we all want a fair chance at winning; again, just keep in mind that certain Decks are poison against others; in some cases, even more so.

 

It's a personal choice if a people wants to run a metagame Deck and such (even if it gets monotonous after a while); nothing much you can do, except ask them politely that they don't (in Duel notes).

 

(And yes, there are some guys on DN who don't know how to play + break the rules. A lot of the stuff in CC"s Joke Cards reflect it to some degree, or that thread in Games about it. Indeed, there have been some situations.)

 

---

In terms of Super Dreadnought, there are some non-meta Decks that can go into it: Trains (which would be a likely candidate, given their nature) or MPBs/some other Deck that can make R10s.

 

For the latter case, it made Top 8 in a European tournament last month against some metagame stuff, but yeah it lost against Qlis from what I heard. MPBs aren't metagame, but likely will.

 

(Although in that case, they'll be easier to deal with than Nekroz and other existing things)

[King K. Azo]

Well, I went to a tournament and place 3rd or 4th (didn't really stick around to find out. No prizes involved and douche judge) with a completely rouge deck, losing only to Ghosttricks (which I don't believe is meta) and that was in a final 'first to take damage' lightning round since we both took forever. I even took out a Nekroz deck... So... Yeah, it is completely possible, you just need to be creative.

[(GigaDrillBreaker)]

Well, I went to a tournament and place 3rd or 4th (didn't really stick around to find out. No prizes involved and douche judge) with a completely rouge deck, losing only to Ghosttricks (which I don't believe is meta) and that was in a final 'first to take damage' lightning round since we both took forever. I even took out a Nekroz deck... So... Yeah, it is completely possible, you just need to be creative.

What was this "completely rogue deck" you used?

[King K. Azo]

What was this "completely rogue deck" you used?

 

A non-Superheavy Samurai defense deck, with Total Defense Shogun being the boss monster. 

[Trebuchet MS]

A non-Superheavy Samurai defense deck, with Total Defense Shogun being the boss monster. 

Now I'm curious.

 

Care to post the deck list up in the Decks section?

[King K. Azo]

Now I'm curious.

 

Care to post the deck list up in the Decks section?

 

Sure. Here you go.

 

http://forum.yugiohcardmaker.net/topic/333719-absolute-defense/

[Sleepy]

It is a natural thing by now that the game is a giant staircase of tiers dating back to the early days, and different people I've found find their comfort zone at completely different floors. An IRL friend I met the other day on the way home was remembering about his days playing Yugioh and was mad that the game had become so powerful that his old deck had no chance whatsoever. What was the deck's match-up? His deck is from when vanillas were most of the monsters in a deck, Spell/Trap Cards made up the actual strategy factor, and Summoned Skull and Penguin Soldier were absolute staples. He lost pretty badly against my brother using a Dragunity Deck that only uses one of each member of the archetype, which in turn is actually a pretty shitty deck compared to nowadays' standards.

 

Please don't hate the meta just because it is the meta. There is a reason why only about 5 or so decks top, and there are benefits to it, it is a different world to casuals.

 

That said, I won't mock your thread's post, even if people say you are over-reacting. Many people of us active in the game regardless of the level we play at, have pretty much come to terms with how the game has to power-creep over time to stay alive. Sometimes they do it in clever ways, and sometimes they just step up the bar a bit too much.

 

But often when I see a person that is just getting back into the game after a long period of time, I mostly always hear around the same complaints. The game is just not the same as it was say, 4 years ago, or any other time ago. People clearly expect something to be different, but also usually expect to get a chance with what they used to use just like how it seems to happen in the anime (X character: "My dad's old deck that he probably used like 20 years ago, I'm gonna take it to that tournament and beat my rival").

 

Frankly speaking, I understand that feeling, but the game wouldn't be around anymore if it stayed at the same level forever (because of economic reasons), at least not without a rotation format, but that's a very huuuge topic on itself so I won't go there right now. 

 

Let me tell you that Agents were meta in 2011, so I guess all is subjective. 

 

 

 

Finally, if you are looking for casual duels, you could always arrange a duel with someone from this site via notifications or PMs. There are a few members I know of that play exclusively casuals, and even the tons of people that do play and appreciate the competitive side of the game also have casual decks for the occasion.

I don't really have assembled decks right now to give out a duel on the spot if asked to, but I've had some lulzy games myself (It is a shame that often YGOpro's replays get corrupted whenever an update happens because I've lost some funny moments). I'll leave you with this messy lagging, soundless, excuse of a video from a duel I had, with GX dinosaurs versus some Dragon Ruler variant:
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI7MHoeFo2g