[TCG] September 2013 Banlist

[Toffee.]

Lightsworn are getting -

Judgemental Dragon
LIGHT / Level 8
[Winged-Beast/Effect]
Must be Special Summoned(from your Hand) while you control no monsters, and have at least 6 different "Lightsworn" monsters in your Graveyard, and cannot be Summoned by other way. Once per turn, you can Pay 1500 Life Points and Banish all LIGHT monsters in your Graveyard Face-down: Send all other cards on the field to the Graveyard, and if you do, the Opponent Draws 1 card. If this card is sent to the Graveyard: Banish it.
ATK 3000 / DEF 2500
?????????????????

In all seriousness, though, the main issue with Sworns is that it's a pure luck-oriented deck. And literally it's ONLY because Judgment Dragon is a card.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Why can't they have something other than JD rehash? Maybe a consistent boss?

[The Warden]

Another boss? What; Lightrays, Sephylon, BLS and Chaos Sorc aren't enough?

[Toffee.]

Ok, I was just kidding.
But still, if they actually DO make a well justified boss for Sworns and then ban JD right after, that actually wouldn't be that bad.
I mean, by default, you don't even physically play the deck, outside of the off-chance you just-so-happen to get [Monster X] in the Graveyard, which leads to plays A, B, and C.

[Maeriberii Haan]

An actual in-theme boss that justifies running the LS other than being an engine would be good.

[Azuh]

If Lightsworns were to get a Synchro or an Xyz, I reckon that'll be pretty cool. But the new cards I believe are going to be for the Main Deck

[NoshpalStefan]

What's all this complaining about LS? Yes, they are pure luck based. But, they haven't won any large tourneys in any recent time. So, let them be. I do, agree, that JD is OP, but do you realize how many counter cards there still are for him? To name a few, Bottomless, Warning, the Traptrix Trap Hole card, Void Trap Hole, Divine Wrath, Phoenix Wing Wind Blast (not as good against him but still worthwhile). So, don't complain. I'd like to see how much you'd all do the same if JD was at 0 and Honest at 3. Seriously. There are more broken cards.

 

On a side note, Traptrix are gonna be awesome this format.

[Maeriberii Haan]

Myrmeleo is splashable anywhere. In OCG, even HEROes and Gadgets splashed her, and win. As a deck though, I'm a bit skeptical about their viability.

[NoshpalStefan]

I think they'd be quite good if they get most support. For now though, they're alright as tier 2, I'd say - and I'd say that because the traps get rid of EVERYTHING. And I had to caps that. You've got 20 really powerful traps, Monsters that get out the traps, and even a tad of a boss monster (Grandsoil). Sure, they aren't Amazing, but they're Good. That's all I can say.

[Blake]

What's all this complaining about LS? Yes, they are pure luck based. But, they haven't won any large tourneys in any recent time. So, let them be. I do, agree, that JD is OP, but do you realize how many counter cards there still are for him? To name a few, Bottomless, Warning, the Traptrix Trap Hole card, Void Trap Hole, Divine Wrath, Phoenix Wing Wind Blast (not as good against him but still worthwhile). So, don't complain. I'd like to see how much you'd all do the same if JD was at 0 and Honest at 3. Seriously. There are more broken cards.

On a side note, Traptrix are gonna be awesome this format.

Are you a fucking moron or what?

Counterability is in no fuxcing way an argument and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to say that it is. People are complaining that there's a badly designed card that hands out wins for win sacky, which is exactly what the TCG list tried to cut down on.

Oh, and comparing JD and Honest was about the stupidest comparison you could try considering both are banworthy.

[Kyng's Old Account]

Are you a fucking moron or what?

Counterability is in no fuxcing way an argument and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to say that it is. People are complaining that there's a badly designed card that hands out wins for win sacky, which is exactly what the TCG list tried to cut down on.

Oh, and comparing JD and Honest was about the stupidest comparison you could try considering both are banworthy.

A typical Black overreaction to a card game.

 

OT: I've got no complaints, not that passionate about the game to be frank.

[Not-so-Radiant Arin]

A typical Black overreaction to a card game.

Because Black cares too much. It's why he can't leave the site, even though deep down he really wants to~

[NoshpalStefan]

Are you a fucking moron or what?

Counterability is in no fuxcing way an argument and you should be ashamed of yourself for trying to say that it is. People are complaining that there's a badly designed card that hands out wins for win sacky, which is exactly what the TCG list tried to cut down on.

Oh, and comparing JD and Honest was about the stupidest comparison you could try considering both are banworthy.

You truly want a better comparison? Shouldn't Garunix also be ban-worthy? How about Megalo? How about Master Hyperion? Boss monsters are all around, still stacking at 3. They're in the game because they're supposed to be. The list tried to get rid of broken decks, not ones that rely on such monsters. If you so dearly hate JD, then ban every f***ing boss monster in the game.

 

And yes, the "everything has a counter" is the most reasonable argument in such a format. Maybe you mistook the argument with "everything has a side-deck card" argument. That was not the case. With the banning of Heavy, there are dozens - nay, I'd say hundreds of traps that can be generally played in any deck and that work against most, if not all, boss monsters. Me mentioning Void Trap Hole and the Traptrix Trap Hole of Nightmares were two examples of general traps.

 

In other words, before I start some sort of blog rant, the list got rid of all broken-advantage decks. Whining about monsters that can be easily dealt with is just showing a childish attitude towards the game because you don't personally like it. Yes, JD is broken. As is Garunix. And, IMHO, the latter is a dozen times easier to get out than just hoping that you'll draw into JD. They're called boss monsters for a reason. Get over it.

[vla1ne]

You truly want a better comparison? Shouldn't Garunix also be ban-worthy? How about Megalo? How about Master Hyperion? Boss monsters are all around, still stacking at 3. They're in the game because they're supposed to be. The list tried to get rid of broken decks, not ones that rely on such monsters. If you so dearly hate JD, then ban every f***ing boss monster in the game.

 

And yes, the "everything has a counter" is the most reasonable argument in such a format. Maybe you mistook the argument with "everything has a side-deck card" argument. That was not the case. With the banning of Heavy, there are dozens - nay, I'd say hundreds of traps that can be generally played in any deck and that work against most, if not all, boss monsters. Me mentioning Void Trap Hole and the Traptrix Trap Hole of Nightmares were two examples of general traps.

 

In other words, before I start some sort of blog rant, the list got rid of all broken-advantage decks. Whining about monsters that can be easily dealt with is just showing a childish attitude towards the game because you don't personally like it. Yes, JD is broken. As is Garunix. And, IMHO, the latter is a dozen times easier to get out than just hoping that you'll draw into JD. They're called boss monsters for a reason. Get over it.

     While I don't agree with the way he wrote it, yuzuru has a point. the "This card has a counter(s)" argument holds merits, but those merits are not against bad design, a well designed effect can have the exact same kinds of counters as a badly designed card, but the difference is that badly designed cards cause unnecessary damage to the game as a whole, you can counter garunix as well, but that does not stop it from being Just as bad, if not worse, than JD, and yes, I agree that they are both broken as all hell in their own right.

 

     Counters to cards that are not well designed should never be an argument for said card existing/ not being limited or banned. I guess you might think that counters to a card means it's ok for said card to be allowed in the game, but if you do think that, then I'm afraid you're wrong. Counters exist for every card, but the fact is that some cards are able to do far to much damage if said counter does not exist on the field and the card goes off even once. That is the problem, JD and cards like it are the kind of cards that have far too much power when allowed to run free, or even allowed 1 use. You could literally drop 2x JD and swing for 6000 damage by turn 3, and with the way lightsworns mill, that is quite a realistic situation when you factor in cards that allow you to draw/ add cards from your grave back to your hand. yuzuru might not have been the most polite person about it, but he is pretty much right when he said that it's a foolish idea to say that counters to a card are a good excuse for leaving said card free.

 

     And no, just because a card is a boss monster, does not excuse it from having terrible design. cards like JD, Garunix, and Grapha, are not well designed, just because they're boss monsters does not excuse them from that fact. konami makes busted  cards. That much is a fact, but that is no excuse for them to keep doing so, nor is it an excuse for those cards to not be hit by the banhammer the waay honest got limited to one after the 3x honest OTK came about. There exists a banned/limited list for a reason, and if the list has to expand a few feet to rebalance the game, then so be it. there are more counters to Victory dragon than there are to JD, and victory dragon is still banned because of it's terrible design. the same principal applies to boss monsters and broken cards in general. without reasonable cost restrictions, some effects just do too much, and that's why they cannot be allowed in the game. JD is one of those cards, his restriction is almost a joke when you're playing lightsworns once you realize that the benefits outweigh the cost by at least 2000 LP.

[Blake]

You truly want a better comparison? Shouldn't Garunix also be ban-worthy? How about Megalo? How about Master Hyperion? Boss monsters are all around, still stacking at 3. They're in the game because they're supposed to be. The list tried to get rid of broken decks, not ones that rely on such monsters. If you so dearly hate JD, then ban every f***ing boss monster in the game.

Megalo and Hyperion aren't banworthy. They can take a hit for sure, but don't banworthy. Besides, you can't compare single card advantage like this to JD.

Garunix is banworthy, yes, because it's an undying Dark Hole that floats on battle death as well. Even then, his biggest issue is Onslaught of the Fire Kings being a card; Lightworns don't have a card like that to blame because the closest equivalents are Charge of the Light Brigade + Monster Reincarnation, which is a 2 card combo that isn't searchable by onslaught.

You're also being dumb if you think hitting Gateway of the Six, Royal Tribute, and Ultimate Offering was "trying to get rid of broken decks". They were hit for the same reasons a card like Judgement Dragon should be; Sacky cards that snowball into game, granted those 2 doing it much faster than 1 JD alone.

Oh, and I'm quite frankly shocked you didn't mention BLS being a boss monster, which is also banworthy because it's a sacky card that hands out wins.
 

And yes, the "everything has a counter" is the most reasonable argument in such a format. Maybe you mistook the argument with "everything has a side-deck card" argument. That was not the case. With the banning of Heavy, there are dozens - nay, I'd say hundreds of traps that can be generally played in any deck and that work against most, if not all, boss monsters. Me mentioning Void Trap Hole and the Traptrix Trap Hole of Nightmares were two examples of general traps.

That's never a reasonable argument. Like, lol, that's generally the WORST argument you can make because it means you're ignoring the core design and impact of the card. Is Shi En balanced by Warning existing? Fuck no.

Banning of Heavy doesn't change shit. Tournament level players stopped giving a fuck that heavy existed and set 3+ card backrows whenever they could. Why? Losing to a random 1/40 card was a fear, yes, but if you didn't set it all you'd die anyways. It was better to feel everything else instead of heavy; If they heavied you, that's just Yugioh. So, in any higher circle of intelligence in this game, Heavy's leave is not changing how people play the backrow.

In other words, before I start some sort of blog rant, the list got rid of all broken-advantage decks. Whining about monsters that can be easily dealt with is just showing a childish attitude towards the game because you don't personally like it. Yes, JD is broken. As is Garunix. And, IMHO, the latter is a dozen times easier to get out than just hoping that you'll draw into JD. They're called boss monsters for a reason. Get over it.

"Broken Advantage Deck" meaning Gadgets, which it didn't eve get rid of, just hit, Six Samurai who are as inconsequential as Lightsworns are now, if not moreso bar Gateway, and Gravekeepers, which haven't been truly relevant in ages.

Being a boss monster =/= entitled to being badly designed and broken.
Mermail Abyssleed's an example; Heavy cost, payoff worth the cost, powerful effect that is the nuts without being too strong. 2700 beater. Only issue with it is Gunde, and that's not its fault. And gunde's not even a problem card.

Darklord Asmodeus is a 3000 beater, with a slight SS restriction, but payoff more than worth it; He foolish burials a fairy once per turn and make 2 Tokens when he dies, in addition to the stickness it was earlier.

Azure-Eyes Silver Dragon supports its deck perfectly well as a boss monster, but is in no way broken. Sure, it's annoying to get over, but it's easy to deal with after the first turn. Sure, you get a free 3000 beater, but you had to pay for it and wait a turn to get it, anyways.

Infernity Doom Dragon is fine as a card. Requires no cards in hand for a 50% Volcasaurus effect that also keep it from attacking that turn. It' a 1-4-1 that's good in the right situations but all around good. Also note that being an Infernity makes it good, and it wouldn't even be good without it.

Coach King Giantrainer's a boss monster that takes a lot of effort to get: Then totally pays itself off, if not burning a little in the process, for a +1 2800 beater n exchange for not battling that turn. The drawback and the draw 3 are perfectly fine together, and it makes for an acceptable boss monster that's worth the effort to make in ideal circumstances while also not giving you too much for the amount of effort.

Number 9: Dyson Sphere's another balanced boss monster. It's big, it's bad, but it requires a relevant cost to be incapable of being attacked. It can even attack directly if your opponent has something bigger than 2800, in exchange for not being able to use both of its assets at once until that happens. Hell, you're not even going to negate attacks until there's something bigger, but you can still take comfort in the fact you have a 2800 that can't be attacked. Slap a Safe Zone on it, set a Forbidden Lance, and it's going to live a long time.

Another thing: Beckoning Light's back in Vogue, so you can literally drop your hand and get back a bunch of JDs to drop without a second thought to win the game. Beckoning Light's not the pinnacle of balance and design, but it's not the problem card when a card that says pay 1000 to nuke the field exists.

I'm not even angry that the unbalanced and/or broken bosses aren't on the list as the lit generally aims to take care of issues, but it's ignorant as all hell to say boss monsters are allowed to be broken because they're bosses. In addition, the list for the TCG aimed to take care of non-issues as well. Tournament Relevance had jack all to do with it when Ultimate Offering, Royal Tribute, and Gateway of the Six, among other things, were hit.

[NoshpalStefan]

Megalo and Hyperion aren't banworthy. They can take a hit for sure, but don't banworthy. Besides, you can't compare single card advantage like this to JD.

Garunix is banworthy, yes, because it's an undying Dark Hole that floats on battle death as well. Even then, his biggest issue is Onslaught of the Fire Kings being a card; Lightworns don't have a card like that to blame because the closest equivalents are Charge of the Light Brigade + Monster Reincarnation, which is a 2 card combo that isn't searchable by onslaught.

You're also being dumb if you think hitting Gateway of the Six, Royal Tribute, and Ultimate Offering was "trying to get rid of broken decks". They were hit for the same reasons a card like Judgement Dragon should be; Sacky cards that snowball into game, granted those 2 doing it much faster than 1 JD alone.

Oh, and I'm quite frankly shocked you didn't mention BLS being a boss monster, which is also banworthy because it's a sacky card that hands out wins.
 That's never a reasonable argument. Like, lol, that's generally the WORST argument you can make because it means you're ignoring the core design and impact of the card. Is Shi En balanced by Warning existing? Fuck no.

Banning of Heavy doesn't change shit. Tournament level players stopped giving a fuck that heavy existed and set 3+ card backrows whenever they could. Why? Losing to a random 1/40 card was a fear, yes, but if you didn't set it all you'd die anyways. It was better to feel everything else instead of heavy; If they heavied you, that's just Yugioh. So, in any higher circle of intelligence in this game, Heavy's leave is not changing how people play the backrow.
"Broken Advantage Deck" meaning Gadgets, which it didn't eve get rid of, just hit, Six Samurai who are as inconsequential as Lightsworns are now, if not moreso bar Gateway, and Gravekeepers, which haven't been truly relevant in ages.

Being a boss monster =/= entitled to being badly designed and broken.
Mermail Abyssleed's an example; Heavy cost, payoff worth the cost, powerful effect that is the nuts without being too strong. 2700 beater. Only issue with it is Gunde, and that's not its fault. And gunde's not even a problem card.

Darklord Asmodeus is a 3000 beater, with a slight SS restriction, but payoff more than worth it; He foolish burials a fairy once per turn and make 2 Tokens when he dies, in addition to the stickness it was earlier.

Azure-Eyes Silver Dragon supports its deck perfectly well as a boss monster, but is in no way broken. Sure, it's annoying to get over, but it's easy to deal with after the first turn. Sure, you get a free 3000 beater, but you had to pay for it and wait a turn to get it, anyways.

Infernity Doom Dragon is fine as a card. Requires no cards in hand for a 50% Volcasaurus effect that also keep it from attacking that turn. It' a 1-4-1 that's good in the right situations but all around good. Also note that being an Infernity makes it good, and it wouldn't even be good without it.

Coach King Giantrainer's a boss monster that takes a lot of effort to get: Then totally pays itself off, if not burning a little in the process, for a +1 2800 beater n exchange for not battling that turn. The drawback and the draw 3 are perfectly fine together, and it makes for an acceptable boss monster that's worth the effort to make in ideal circumstances while also not giving you too much for the amount of effort.

Number 9: Dyson Sphere's another balanced boss monster. It's big, it's bad, but it requires a relevant cost to be incapable of being attacked. It can even attack directly if your opponent has something bigger than 2800, in exchange for not being able to use both of its assets at once until that happens. Hell, you're not even going to negate attacks until there's something bigger, but you can still take comfort in the fact you have a 2800 that can't be attacked. Slap a Safe Zone on it, set a Forbidden Lance, and it's going to live a long time.

Another thing: Beckoning Light's back in Vogue, so you can literally drop your hand and get back a bunch of JDs to drop without a second thought to win the game. Beckoning Light's not the pinnacle of balance and design, but it's not the problem card when a card that says pay 1000 to nuke the field exists.

I'm not even angry that the unbalanced and/or broken bosses aren't on the list as the lit generally aims to take care of issues, but it's ignorant as all hell to say boss monsters are allowed to be broken because they're bosses. In addition, the list for the TCG aimed to take care of non-issues as well. Tournament Relevance had jack all to do with it when Ultimate Offering, Royal Tribute, and Gateway of the Six, among other things, were hit.

My point regarding Garunix and JD was quite simply, for now at least, that Garunix is a much more searchable boss and yet people are complaining about JD. No, JD can't do crap when compared in such a manner. And LS is not in the least broken because of JD. It's broken because people thought it was a wise idea to make a LIGHT deck that can easily mill powerful DARK monsters (Necro, Bacon Saver), can get rid of Spell / Traps (Lyla, Ryko) and can stack in at least 3 Boss Monsters (JD, Sorcerer, BLS) to go for a win, and has cards like Lumina that can just swarm like hell. I still hold that JD is not even close to the problem. He is, if nothing else, only a measly tenth of the problem. LS is broken in general. Getting rid of one ban-worthy card won't do a damn.

 

I still hold that trying to compare the very nature of JD / BLS is stupid to Gateway. Maybe compare it to Monster Reborn - a card that does indeed come into play and changes the game; the problem with Gateway is that it gives you a f***ton of field advantage, and may I add, has very little ways of being stopped - no ways if you get it first turn.

 

Yes, I justify being a boss monster for having a bad design. Focusing a deck around the boss has been done for a LONG time now. It is meant to be big, bad, and even broken for the sake of a winning condition. However, that does not justify the entire deck being broken. If the deck had consisted of monsters that just focused on getting the big guy out would've been fine. But, considering that Lightsworns have a broken nature to the very monsters - that, I do not justify. The 3 cards in 40 is fine for having to draw them eventually. The fact that we have monsters that swarm the field like crazy and then manage to nuke it with a big guy cannot be justified? Get my point? I hope you do. To put it shortly, Lumina / Lyla bad, JD okay.

 

That's all the points I can fathom thus far.

[Blake]

My point regarding Garunix and JD was quite simply, for now at least, that Garunix is a much more searchable boss and yet people are complaining about JD. No, JD can't do crap when compared in such a manner. And LS is not in the least broken because of JD. It's broken because people thought it was a wise idea to make a LIGHT deck that can easily mill powerful DARK monsters (Necro, Bacon Saver), can get rid of Spell / Traps (Lyla, Ryko) and can stack in at least 3 Boss Monsters (JD, Sorcerer, BLS) to go for a win, and has cards like Lumina that can just swarm like hell. I still hold that JD is not even close to the problem. He is, if nothing else, only a measly tenth of the problem. LS is broken in general. Getting rid of one ban-worthy card won't do a damn.

>Bacon Saver
>Necro Gardna
>Good Lightsworns

lolwut

LS aren't broke at all. While I myself am unsure on it, the general consensus of the competitive community is that you can kill JD and bring Charge of the Light Brigade to 3. Why? Powerful engine doesn't mean broken, though 3 of Charge may be too much. Lumina's not broken any more than Zombie Master is broken, Lyla's just a glorified Breaker, and Ryko's a slow +1. None of these cards are issue in the slightest and just make a solid engine, which is in no way harmful to the gamestate.
 

I still hold that trying to compare the very nature of JD / BLS is stupid to Gateway. Maybe compare it to Monster Reborn - a card that does indeed come into play and changes the game; the problem with Gateway is that it gives you a f***ton of field advantage, and may I add, has very little ways of being stopped - no ways if you get it first turn.

I never compared them beyond being sacky cards that win the game when you draw them/resolve them, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
 

Yes, I justify being a boss monster for having a bad design. Focusing a deck around the boss has been done for a LONG time now. It is meant to be big, bad, and even broken for the sake of a winning condition. However, that does not justify the entire deck being broken. If the deck had consisted of monsters that just focused on getting the big guy out would've been fine. But, considering that Lightsworns have a broken nature to the very monsters - that, I do not justify. The 3 cards in 40 is fine for having to draw them eventually. The fact that we have monsters that swarm the field like crazy and then manage to nuke it with a big guy cannot be justified? Get my point? I hope you do. To put it shortly, Lumina / Lyla bad, JD okay.
 
That's all the points I can fathom thus far.

You CANNOT justify that, and if you do, it just makes every single point you've made thus far moot if you actually say that's logical. Bad Design is never acceptable, especially not for a boss that's supposed to be the epitome of what the deck does. The fact that you think Lightsworns are in any way broken makes me laugh because, by that logic, something like Bear + 2 Tenki + 1 other Fire Formation's a broken engine because it speeds decks up too much; But speeding things up isn't bad when it's not TOO fast.

[NoshpalStefan]

>Bacon Saver
>Necro Gardna
>Good Lightsworns

lolwut

LS aren't broke at all. While I myself am unsure on it, the general consensus of the competitive community is that you can kill JD and bring Charge of the Light Brigade to 3. Why? Powerful engine doesn't mean broken, though 3 of Charge may be too much. Lumina's not broken any more than Zombie Master is broken, Lyla's just a glorified Breaker, and Ryko's a slow +1. None of these cards are issue in the slightest and just make a solid engine, which is in no way harmful to the gamestate.
 I never compared them beyond being sacky cards that win the game when you draw them/resolve them, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
 You CANNOT justify that, and if you do, it just makes every single point you've made thus far moot if you actually say that's logical. Bad Design is never acceptable, especially not for a boss that's supposed to be the epitome of what the deck does. The fact that you think Lightsworns are in any way broken makes me laugh because, by that logic, something like Bear + 2 Tenki + 1 other Fire Formation's a broken engine because it speeds decks up too much; But speeding things up isn't bad when it's not TOO fast.

First point: not saying that bacon saver and necro make the deck good, I'm just saying that when you can splash such cards in a deck that can optimize them so well - that is not right. It isn't those 2 that make the deck good, it's just that they represent how quickly LS can, namely 1-2 turns, make a swarm field with Grave protection.

 

Second point: I'm not criticizing you for this, I'm just saying that comparing Gateway and JD is just bad. Yes, both are broken, but they're broken in different ways, that's all.

 

Third point, yes, I hold that LS are broken. Breaker as a card is extremely good. As is Zombie Master. But they become broken when you add something along the lines of "I'm gonna do the same thing only I'm going to mill a couple more cards because f*** it, I can". I hope people understand my point now, though I highly doubt it. As for the general consensus that JD should be gone and Charge gone to 3 is just stupid. We have Xyzs now. Maybe back when only synchros / fusions existed. But now you can optimize the entire engine, even without JD, to work so perfectly with Xyz swarms. That's why I argue that JD's design isn't bad in today's meta, where we handle everything with Maestroke or Steelswarm Roach. Most Xyz are more badly broken than JD will ever be. Oh gee, we're gonna ban Pot of Avarice because it's too sacky but in no way is Daigusto Emerald close to that! I know the comparison isn't the best - Emerald only does half of what Avarice does - but I'm saying that, among these dozens of broken cards, which can be brought out much more easily, JD is not one to complain about.

 

P.S. As a former LS player, I'd honestly love for JD to go to 0 and Charge to 3 and to see the chaos ensue. Yeah, why not, let's make a deck that can bring out a s***load of xyzs to the field - but no, we banned the big guy which could be easily stopped by most traps so it's A-Okay! Geez...

[Blake]

In what universe are Lightsworns are a proficient Xyz engine? They're a much better engine to support Synchro decks, because making -1 Xyz with Lumina's nay okay, nothing amazing. Either that or solid standalones (Lyla, Ryko).

Wulf's a piece of shit, they have no Level 4 swarm beyond that, have no level 2 swarm capabilities, only Level 3, and if the engine is Ryko-Lyla or Ryko-Lumina-Lyla, you're not making Xyz at all with that. Is much more proficient in helping easy to summon tuners make Xyz/Deck thin ala plants than Xyz. Plus most, if not all, other level 3 Lightsworns are godawful.

Also, Daigusto Emeral is in no way more broken than JD. More generic? Yes. More likely to become a problem card in the current game due to loops eventually happening? Yes. More broken and potent? Hell no. It's a measly 1800 with a mini-avarice effect. And, by the by, Avarice was banned not due to being a sacky card, but due to the fact that extreme deck thinning and grave filling is a thing, especially in decks like Mermail.

Your entire argument reeks of a lack of acceptance that power creep has turned LS into something not even CLOSE to it's former glory. Power creep has made more broken things, yes, but Judgment Dragon is still a very potent, unfair, unbalanced boss monster that shouldn't exist at even 1 in an ideal world. Is power creep going a bit too far? Yes. Does that mean LS are still "broken". No, they're not broken at all anymore. 3 Charge probably wouldn't even change the gamestate beyond making a rogue ass tier 2 deck, ala Blackwings' predicted path.

[NoshpalStefan]

In what universe are Lightsworns are a proficient Xyz engine? They're a much better engine to support Synchro decks, because making -1 Xyz with Lumina's nay okay, nothing amazing. Either that or solid standalones (Lyla, Ryko).

Wulf's a piece of shit, they have no Level 4 swarm beyond that, have no level 2 swarm capabilities, only Level 3, and if the engine is Ryko-Lyla or Ryko-Lumina-Lyla, you're not making Xyz at all with that. Is much more proficient in helping easy to summon tuners make Xyz/Deck thin ala plants than Xyz. Plus most, if not all, other level 3 Lightsworns are godawful.

Also, Daigusto Emeral is in no way more broken than JD. More generic? Yes. More likely to become a problem card in the current game due to loops eventually happening? Yes. More broken and potent? Hell no. It's a measly 1800 with a mini-avarice effect. And, by the by, Avarice was banned not due to being a sacky card, but due to the fact that extreme deck thinning and grave filling is a thing, especially in decks like Mermail.

Your entire argument reeks of a lack of acceptance that power creep has turned LS into something not even CLOSE to it's former glory. Power creep has made more broken things, yes, but Judgment Dragon is still a very potent, unfair, unbalanced boss monster that shouldn't exist at even 1 in an ideal world. Is power creep going a bit too far? Yes. Does that mean LS are still "broken". No, they're not broken at all anymore. 3 Charge probably wouldn't even change the gamestate beyond making a rogue ass tier 2 deck, ala Blackwings' predicted path.

 

In the same way that Zombies are, the only disadvantage being that Zombies can continuously loop with Master and Lavalval Chain. However, with the abundance of good Rank 3s, Lumina is a much better option - perhaps not as a more proficient engine than Zombies, but a more prudent one indeed. As for level 3 LS - Shire and that 1200 that doesn't let you target is good enough for me.

 

As for adding synchros to the equation, plague is at 2 currently. Don't you think that boosts their power at least a tad bit? Also, putting Charge at 3 whilst we have plague at 2, Necro at 3 and Bacon Saver, it really would not end well.

 

Emerald is as broken as JD - if not in LS, then in Zombies at least. He should've been banned for the same reason Avarice was.

 

My "lack of acceptance" is based on the fact that we're all complaining about one card which actually makes a deck close to their former glory, and yet you fail to acknowledge that Zombies / Fire Kings / Blackwings are about tenfold as broken as Lightsworn with JD in it. We can't ban all cards that make a deck broken and that are badly designed for a simple reason: the game would be boring to play then. If your argument stands that LS are not broken, then you can't pose the argument that JD should be at 0 because it's the only thing keeping them alive. Same would go with Fire King. Take away Garunix and you have a deck that is close to tier 2 with good swarm capabilities, but not nearly good enough for anyone to want to play them. This is all if we're going by the factor that JD is broken, which, admittedly, even I can concede and say that he is (same goes for Garunix, of course).

[Blake]

In the same way that Zombies are, the only disadvantage being that Zombies can continuously loop with Master and Lavalval Chain. However, with the abundance of good Rank 3s, Lumina is a much better option - perhaps not as a more proficient engine than Zombies, but a more prudent one indeed. As for level 3 LS - Shire and that 1200 that doesn't let you target is good enough for me.

They don't Xyz Spam. In any way, they do not Xyz Spam. Being able to make the occasional Rank 3 with Luminas at a -1 is not spam.

Zombies can Xyz Spam because they have Zombie Master, Blue-Blooded Oni, AND Mezuki, it has nothing to do with Master alone. Compare to 3 Lumina against an actual set of cards that work together to spam.

Shire's fucking shit, Aurkus is barely decent at best.
 

As for adding synchros to the equation, plague is at 2 currently. Don't you think that boosts their power at least a tad bit? Also, putting Charge at 3 whilst we have plague at 2, Necro at 3 and Bacon Saver, it really would not end well.

Implying that -1 Synchros if you're lucky enough to mill Plaguespreader make LS broken.

Implying any Lightsworn deck worth its stock still uses Necro Gardna, much less Bacon Saver.
 

Emerald is as broken as JD - if not in LS, then in Zombies at least. He should've been banned for the same reason Avarice was.

Emeral isn't even comparable to a damn nuke on a 3K body, so stop trying to compare them.

Yes, Emeral is banworthy due to its inevitable impact on the games and the loops it causes, but not because it's a miniature avarice, which you don't seem to realize.

As a mini-Avarice, Emeral isn't broken in the slightest. Yay, you return 2 draw 1. What's next, Scrap Recycler is broken? It's only a busted card because it causes loops, such as in Infernity where it led to an infinite Ouroboros loop.

 
My "lack of acceptance" is based on the fact that we're all complaining about one card which actually makes a deck close to their former glory, and yet you fail to acknowledge that Zombies / Fire Kings / Blackwings are about tenfold as broken as Lightsworn with JD in it. We can't ban all cards that make a deck broken and that are badly designed for a simple reason: the game would be boring to play then. If your argument stands that LS are not broken, then you can't pose the argument that JD should be at 0 because it's the only thing keeping them alive. Same would go with Fire King. Take away Garunix and you have a deck that is close to tier 2 with good swarm capabilities, but not nearly good enough for anyone to want to play them. This is all if we're going by the factor that JD is broken, which, admittedly, even I can concede and say that he is (same goes for Garunix, of course).

Are you being serious right now? BLACKWINGS are broken? ZOMBIES are broken? Are you even listening to yourself or do you just not have a clue of the gamestate at all?

If a deck lives because of a broken card, it does NOT deserve to live. JD should be at 0. Thing with Garunix is that you don't have to take it away, you jut get rid of Onslaught, which is the real problem card.

Stop comparing JD and Garunix when they're not even that comparable. Either make a better analogy than "oh hey boss that wipes the field" or stop. If anything, JD is a free-to-drop 3K at worst, and a 3K nuke at best. Garunix is a card that's dead in the hand unless you draw Yaksha and is only good because a broken ass spell card exists that can special summon it from the deck.

[vla1ne]

1) JD is a card that can literally end games if you have even 1 of him in hand at the start of a duel, because milling lightsworns is not all that hard. He's essentially an cheaper demise effect with 600 more ATK. clearing the field with him more often than not going to give you the upper hand.

 

2) Garunix or Onslaught should be hit next list due to bad design (to 1 for each or to 0 for 1) for that matter, rekindling needs to be hit as well. but that's another story.

 

3) Emerald is not as broken as JD in terms of individual power, but in terms of combinations, it is definitely more powerful. it can restore monsters to regain advantage, but it's not able to do too much on it's own in comparison to a nuke. it will get hit by the list eventually, but that still does not give judgment the right to live at 3

 

4) While we can't ban all cards with terrible design (the game would lose quite a few bosses), at the very least there should be an effort made to limit them. claiming that we cant do anything about every card with bad design just facilitates more bad design in the future, there should be an effort to minimalize bad design so that loops are less prevalent. and if it requires a larger list, then so be it. 

[NoshpalStefan]

I know that JD can quite easily end games. I was among the many who played LS in their former glory and even continued playing them when they got hit hard. JD is the nuke god of bosses, I know. But my argument was quite clear. If JD is hit, LS is forever dead, not even being able to get to tier 2 then. In any case, I will do some deck testing on DN with 3 recharge and 0 JD, just for the hell of seeing how it works out.

 

I'm not trying to imply that Blackwings and Zombies are anywhere near as broken as Mermails or Dragon Rulers are. I am trying to say that they are quite more powerful than LS, even with JD. And here's why: LS are all about unleashing their boss, JD, and then pray for it to work. All these other decks can come back from the depths of despair and still win. LS, unfortunately, cannot unless it has the goddamn luck of drawing into JD again, or something that brings him back. The whole point of the list was to kill broken decks, and so they did, but one must acknowledge that BW and FK are tenfold more powerful than LS. Actually, one does not have to acknowldge that, but it is what does my humble opinion justice.

 

Getting rid of Onslaught gets rid of its brokenness, but it's still playable. We still have things like Yaksha or Call of the Haunted to at least kick start the deck. Although, I admit that without Onslaught, Garunix is just... no.

 

And about Emerald, yeah, I pretty much agree, it creates loops and thus is broken, but he is clearly good even without the loop part - it's a +1 without any real cost if used correctly. But, I really have had enough of trying to argue about JD - I'm trying to leave it at this, it is broken, but it is necessary for a deck to live. Once again, I'll try the DN thing, just to see results.

[vla1ne]

All generic light bosses work with lightsworns, not just JD, and I don't think I said kill him completely, I know that lightsworns need a bit of JD power, what I am saying is that him and cards like him (onslaught, garunix, and other cards with bad design, but are mostly necessary for their deck) should be limited to 1 at the very least if you can't ban them outright. To be completely fair, any card that can easily generate advantage without adequate investment is badly designed.

 

I get that certain decks need a powerful card to survive, but when that card is so powerful that it is the only thing holding them up, you have to cut it down and let the deck struggle a bit. there are a ton of decent decks that just aren't meta, lightsworns are one of them. if it can't hold a permanent place without 3 JD, then it doesn't deserve a permanent place there. at 1 JD is still a powerful threat, but it cant turn into an 6000 damage semi-OTK engine with just 2 in hand and a good mill.

[Azuh]

Just so you know (and to split the argument a bit) the Blue-Eyes Structure contains Monster Reborn... But its banned in TCG format.

Quite a stuff up