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~British Soul~ Mentor

~British Soul~

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Kek, that site just crapped on Rooster Teeth, so much for their three-tier release schedule.

In any case, I'm not going to watch the episode until it's available for people with accounts on the RT site, ie tomorrow.

 

EDIT (Sunday) finally got around  to seeing the episode on RT's site. (Yeah, I am NOT pirating it on that anime site whatsoever)

[spoiler=Thoughts on episode 1]

I do like the transitions they made inbetweeen scenes. (The first two I remember seeing at the RWBY vol 1 screening)

"Now that's a katana" wow Ruby. It was also amusing when Ruby said "This is FILTH!"

 

 

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~British Soul~ Mentor

~British Soul~

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What letter?

 

[spoiler=Thoughts on episode 2]

The Blake vs Zwei scene was cute. The scene with Weiss ice scating with the camera panning back revealing the rest of Team RWBY encased in it reminded me of a similar scene shown at the vol 1 screenings.

"I'm gonna report you to Glynda for profiling" that scene was amusing.

 

 

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Timeskipper Newbie

Timeskipper

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Has anyone else read that open letter regarding this series?

I have. It's gotten me concerned a little that Fullscreen execs are gonna start forcing RT to cut down on quality and content to save money and churn out Volumes faster, but right now there has been no evidence that it will happen. I'm just a bit concerned...
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Shradow Newbie

Shradow

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After reading through it, I'll say I'm sympathetically skeptical. These are some heavy accusations, and if there's anyone I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to, it's the guys at RT. We need to hear the full story, not just one side from someone who seems clearly biased. I'd particularly like to see what Miles, Kerry, and Gray have to say about it.

 

There is the question of how much RT can say to this, though, given how NDAs work (which Shane more than likely broke by releasing this letter). We'll have to wait and see.

 

EDIT: So I've been skimming through the thread on the RT site about this, and I found this post very useful.

[spoiler=Post]

Brief Thoughts
 
So, my thoughts. First of all, Shane just made himself unhireable. He wrote a 36 page manifesto that was meant to expose the inner workings of his former employer, because he didn't like how things went. And it's entirely possible he violated an NDA to do so. No company who does research on its potential employees before hiring them is ever going to go near him now. GG Shane.
 
As for his marriage, he made a choice to spend all of his time working (more on that later) and with Sheena, rather than with his family. Something I've said countless times in various contexts is that sometimes it doesn't matter what your intentions are, only your actions matter. Shane made choices that turned him into an absentee husband and parent, and his wife left him for it. That's not on RT, that's on him.
 
As for Sheena, as others have said, she was never an RT employee. It's impossible to be cut out of something you were never part of. It's great that she helped Monty off the books, but that doesn't make her part of the show. We don't know any specifics about how RT interacted with her after Monty's death, all we have for certain are 2 out of context quotes that may or may not be misremembered. If they were malicious to her, that's shitty. If they weren't, then whatever. We don't know, so we can't judge.
 
Monty's Workflow
 
Monty did things his own way, which worked when he was the only animator on RvB in Season 8. Shane adopted Monty's workflow as his own. But when you do everything yourself in your own way, and that way is unique, it becomes very difficult to work as part of a team, because those people aren't doing things the same way, and are relying on the rest of the team to be on the same page. As the animation team grew, Monty was only able to get away with continuing to do things his way because he was Monty.
 
Shane isn't Monty.
 
When you have ten people doing something one way, and one person doing it a different way that doesn't gel with the other ten, the one person is a problem, by definition. Shane himself said that he had to do things his own way, and then spend a whole lot of time adapting what he'd done to the way everyone else was doing it, and he frequently got it wrong and had to redo it. He wasn't doing what was being asked of him, in the way in which he was being asked to do it. That's a problem. He made more work for himself by holding onto Monty's workflow for its own sake (more on that later). Had he chosen to conform to how the rest of the team was doing things, he would not have had that problem.
 
What he should have done was tell his higher-ups that the only reason he and Monty were able to produce the volume of work they were churning out was because of their process, and by changing the process, either deadlines would have to be adjusted, or less work would have to be required. It's possible he did this, but he didn't specifically mention it in his document, so we don't know. I suspect he didn't.
 
On RWBY's Story
 
Throughout his letter, Shane speaks as though he is the only one who understands Monty's vision for the show. That is provably not true. It's been said countless times that Monty, Miles, and Kerry spent a lot of time discussing RWBY alone before anyone else got involved in it. Shane has tried to make it out as if he and Sheena are the only ones who know what Monty's vision for the show was, but that's simply incorrect. Miles has said Monty discussed storylines with him that extend 7 or 8 seasons into the show. One thing we can be certain of is that Miles and Kerry know more about Monty's vision for this show anyone else does, save perhaps Gray.
 
He also says the fights are the most important part of the show. I seriously doubt that's true. Fighting in a show like RWBY is a storytelling element, not the main factor behind the show. The fights are nice, but I don't think they're why people are watching the show. If it was just the fights people cared about, then that's all they'd be watching.
 
Shane complains that some things got cut from season 3. So what? As others have said already, story elements change all the time. Hell, in a story outline I'm working on right now, I had to rewrite an entire section because the way I'd originally envisioned it happening wouldn't have made sense in the larger context. We lost Raven fighting team CFVY in a cafe. That fight would have made no sense, and would have slowed the season down significantly.
 
We lost Yang fighting Adam. After all the fighting Yang had already done, it makes sense that she'd fail against Adam, plus this way it establishes Adam as a highly credible threat, and Yang undergoes character growth. This way is better. Ruby fights Torchwick and Neo on top of a plane now. So what? The fight still happens. The animations previously done for it don't work any more. So what? The previously completed animations obviously weren't part of the episode's production flow, so just ignore them and animate the scene as directed.
 
Pyrrha's death scene got changed so that Jaune didn't cause her death any more, and instead Ruby was there for it. One of the prevailing opinions in the RWBY forum is that people don't like how much of Pyrrha's story was just to benefit Jaune's character growth. Can you imagine how much louder the backlash against that scene would have been if even her death was perceived as only happening to advance Jaune's growth?
 
So yes, some of the things Monty originally envisioned for the show got left on the cutting room floor, or in some cases not shot at all. That on its own does not mean that it happening was a bad thing.
 
What vs. Why
 
One thing that should stand out to anyone reading what Shane wrote is that while he spends an awful lot of time telling us what happened, he doesn't tell us why it happened. That's because he doesn't know. He can't know. As importantly as he viewed himself in the RWBY production universe, the simple fact is that he was just an animator. He was an employee being told what to do. He tells us that things got cut from the show, but he doesn't tell us how much discussion there was before those things were cut. He doesn't tell us whether Miles and Kerry and Gray argued for hours about whether something would fit. He just tells us the end result, because that's all he knows about it.
 
It's fine that he's telling us what he knows, but it's important to keep in mind that he doesn't know everything. A great example is, if that snapchat picture really did come from JJ, that Shane thought JJ got fired and replaced, when in fact JJ merely left voluntarily. Shane doesn't have all the facts, which makes it impossible for him to present them unbiasedly.
 
You can liken this to what happens on Mythbusters. On the show, Adam or Jaime will explain that they're running a test a certain way, and leave it at that. What they don't tell us, which we can know because they once put out a behind the scenes video that explains it, is that before they choose how to test something, Adam and Jaime spend hours debating what the most fair and reliable way is to test the myth. They consider lots of options, evaluate them all, and once they arrive at one they're happy with, they tell us what it is.
 
Undoubtedly, the same thing happens behind the scenes of every major decision about RWBY. So while Shane might be told "We're letting this person animate Pyrrha's death, because we think he's earned it," what he's not told is whatever discussions might have taken place to lead to that decision. For instance, how did he earn it? Was it by doing a fantastic job on everything else and showing marked improvement? Was it by animating a proof of concept piece that demonstrated he could do that specific scene very well? Was it blowjobs? We'll never know, because Shane doesn't know, because it wasn't any of his business to know.
 
It All Boils Down To...
 
The real issue here is that while it's possible that every word Shane wrote is true, he's necessarily viewing it through a biased lens. His bias is that he was closer to Monty than anyone else except Sheena, and thus he believes he knows better than anyone else what's best for RWBY. But that's something he can't prove is correct, because he doesn't know what Miles, Kerry, or Gray know about the show's lore and future.
 
Carrying Monty's torch for this show doesn't mean adhering to every single thing Monty ever said about it as if it's gospel from on high. It means carrying forward the spirit of Monty's vision, and understanding that some things aren't going to work, and will need to be changed. Some things Monty didn't think of will have to be added, because they enhance the world and its stories. Not everything Monty comes up with is a good idea, and putting in something that doesn't work just because Monty's the one who came up with it is a bad idea.
 
RWBY has grown into Rooster Teeth's biggest project, and in order to keep that many people working productively, things need to be standardized. Miles and Kerry are storytellers, and understand that in order to tell a good story, sometimes you have to murder your darlings. RWBY volume 3 was bigger in every way than volumes 1 and 2 were, and in order to bring it together, RT had to adapt. Shane wasn't willing to do that.
 
That is not moving forward; it's clinging to the past.
 
The simple fact is that Rooster Teeth will do what's best for Rooster Teeth. What's best for Rooster Teeth is to keep the fans happy, so that they buy things. You don't keep the fans happy by sabotaging your flagship program. Whatever Rooster Teeth is doing behind the scenes of RWBY, you can be confident it's what they believe is best for the show, because doing what's best for the show is how you get a superior product.
 
It's evident that Shane disagreed with the direction Rooster Teeth were taking the show. He was resistant to change, to the point of self-sabotage. He made bad decisions in both his professional and personal life, and became enough of a problem that RT weren't comfortable keeping him on the team any more. Sometimes, that's how business works. It's unfortunate, but it happens every day, all over the world. It doesn't mean that either of them is necessarily right or wrong, it just means they aren't compatible any more. And that's life.

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Timeskipper Newbie

Timeskipper

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Personally, my main concern is not about the story (if anything, the changes Shane alluded to sound like improvements to me), but rather about fight scenes.

Volume 3 had a distinct drop in overall fight scene quality, in the sense that it had around 50% fight scenes which were up to the previous volumes' standards and the rest were significantly worse, and from what I've read, those 50% are the fight scenes neither Monty nor Shane had any hand in: all of Episode 2, Qrow and Winter's fight, Emerald and Mercury's fight vs Coco and Yatsuhashi and the first part of the RWBY vs ABRN fight.

Now that Monty is gone, and Shane (who was the one that animated the Pyrrha vs CRDL fight, IIRC) has been fired, I'm afraid that the new animators just don't get the point of Monty's animation style. I know they're supposed to be professionals, but that kind of style is, AFAIK, something very noticeably absent in the US, where it's more about the big impressive special effects instead of flow, style and creativity in fighting.

 

Of course, I may be wrong - I haven't played all that many games or seen many cartoons/movies made in the US that included martial arts fighting scenes, so I may simply be ignoring that there are quality products out there that I simply don't know of (I mean, the only US-made cartoon I know that had actually well done fighting scenes was ATLA, which was more or less on the same level of, if not superior to RWBY in that aspect), but that's my worry. Fighting scenes are an extremely important part of RWBY, without them, and the artistic touch Monty added to them, RWBY isn't exactly outstanding compared to other anime, so if we lose that, RWBY will become meaningless.

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Shradow Newbie

Shradow

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take a read through this before you jump to any immediate conclusions on shane's letter: http://roosterteeth.com/post/51264449

always two sides to a story.

EDIT: So I've been skimming through the thread on the RT site about this, and I found this post very useful.

[spoiler=Post]

Brief Thoughts
 
So, my thoughts. First of all, Shane just made himself unhireable. He wrote a 36 page manifesto that was meant to expose the inner workings of his former employer, because he didn't like how things went. And it's entirely possible he violated an NDA to do so. No company who does research on its potential employees before hiring them is ever going to go near him now. GG Shane.
 
As for his marriage, he made a choice to spend all of his time working (more on that later) and with Sheena, rather than with his family. Something I've said countless times in various contexts is that sometimes it doesn't matter what your intentions are, only your actions matter. Shane made choices that turned him into an absentee husband and parent, and his wife left him for it. That's not on RT, that's on him.
 
As for Sheena, as others have said, she was never an RT employee. It's impossible to be cut out of something you were never part of. It's great that she helped Monty off the books, but that doesn't make her part of the show. We don't know any specifics about how RT interacted with her after Monty's death, all we have for certain are 2 out of context quotes that may or may not be misremembered. If they were malicious to her, that's shitty. If they weren't, then whatever. We don't know, so we can't judge.
 
Monty's Workflow
 
Monty did things his own way, which worked when he was the only animator on RvB in Season 8. Shane adopted Monty's workflow as his own. But when you do everything yourself in your own way, and that way is unique, it becomes very difficult to work as part of a team, because those people aren't doing things the same way, and are relying on the rest of the team to be on the same page. As the animation team grew, Monty was only able to get away with continuing to do things his way because he was Monty.
 
Shane isn't Monty.
 
When you have ten people doing something one way, and one person doing it a different way that doesn't gel with the other ten, the one person is a problem, by definition. Shane himself said that he had to do things his own way, and then spend a whole lot of time adapting what he'd done to the way everyone else was doing it, and he frequently got it wrong and had to redo it. He wasn't doing what was being asked of him, in the way in which he was being asked to do it. That's a problem. He made more work for himself by holding onto Monty's workflow for its own sake (more on that later). Had he chosen to conform to how the rest of the team was doing things, he would not have had that problem.
 
What he should have done was tell his higher-ups that the only reason he and Monty were able to produce the volume of work they were churning out was because of their process, and by changing the process, either deadlines would have to be adjusted, or less work would have to be required. It's possible he did this, but he didn't specifically mention it in his document, so we don't know. I suspect he didn't.
 
On RWBY's Story
 
Throughout his letter, Shane speaks as though he is the only one who understands Monty's vision for the show. That is provably not true. It's been said countless times that Monty, Miles, and Kerry spent a lot of time discussing RWBY alone before anyone else got involved in it. Shane has tried to make it out as if he and Sheena are the only ones who know what Monty's vision for the show was, but that's simply incorrect. Miles has said Monty discussed storylines with him that extend 7 or 8 seasons into the show. One thing we can be certain of is that Miles and Kerry know more about Monty's vision for this show anyone else does, save perhaps Gray.
 
He also says the fights are the most important part of the show. I seriously doubt that's true. Fighting in a show like RWBY is a storytelling element, not the main factor behind the show. The fights are nice, but I don't think they're why people are watching the show. If it was just the fights people cared about, then that's all they'd be watching.
 
Shane complains that some things got cut from season 3. So what? As others have said already, story elements change all the time. Hell, in a story outline I'm working on right now, I had to rewrite an entire section because the way I'd originally envisioned it happening wouldn't have made sense in the larger context. We lost Raven fighting team CFVY in a cafe. That fight would have made no sense, and would have slowed the season down significantly.
 
We lost Yang fighting Adam. After all the fighting Yang had already done, it makes sense that she'd fail against Adam, plus this way it establishes Adam as a highly credible threat, and Yang undergoes character growth. This way is better. Ruby fights Torchwick and Neo on top of a plane now. So what? The fight still happens. The animations previously done for it don't work any more. So what? The previously completed animations obviously weren't part of the episode's production flow, so just ignore them and animate the scene as directed.
 
Pyrrha's death scene got changed so that Jaune didn't cause her death any more, and instead Ruby was there for it. One of the prevailing opinions in the RWBY forum is that people don't like how much of Pyrrha's story was just to benefit Jaune's character growth. Can you imagine how much louder the backlash against that scene would have been if even her death was perceived as only happening to advance Jaune's growth?
 
So yes, some of the things Monty originally envisioned for the show got left on the cutting room floor, or in some cases not shot at all. That on its own does not mean that it happening was a bad thing.
 
What vs. Why
 
One thing that should stand out to anyone reading what Shane wrote is that while he spends an awful lot of time telling us what happened, he doesn't tell us why it happened. That's because he doesn't know. He can't know. As importantly as he viewed himself in the RWBY production universe, the simple fact is that he was just an animator. He was an employee being told what to do. He tells us that things got cut from the show, but he doesn't tell us how much discussion there was before those things were cut. He doesn't tell us whether Miles and Kerry and Gray argued for hours about whether something would fit. He just tells us the end result, because that's all he knows about it.
 
It's fine that he's telling us what he knows, but it's important to keep in mind that he doesn't know everything. A great example is, if that snapchat picture really did come from JJ, that Shane thought JJ got fired and replaced, when in fact JJ merely left voluntarily. Shane doesn't have all the facts, which makes it impossible for him to present them unbiasedly.
 
You can liken this to what happens on Mythbusters. On the show, Adam or Jaime will explain that they're running a test a certain way, and leave it at that. What they don't tell us, which we can know because they once put out a behind the scenes video that explains it, is that before they choose how to test something, Adam and Jaime spend hours debating what the most fair and reliable way is to test the myth. They consider lots of options, evaluate them all, and once they arrive at one they're happy with, they tell us what it is.
 
Undoubtedly, the same thing happens behind the scenes of every major decision about RWBY. So while Shane might be told "We're letting this person animate Pyrrha's death, because we think he's earned it," what he's not told is whatever discussions might have taken place to lead to that decision. For instance, how did he earn it? Was it by doing a fantastic job on everything else and showing marked improvement? Was it by animating a proof of concept piece that demonstrated he could do that specific scene very well? Was it blowjobs? We'll never know, because Shane doesn't know, because it wasn't any of his business to know.
 
It All Boils Down To...
 
The real issue here is that while it's possible that every word Shane wrote is true, he's necessarily viewing it through a biased lens. His bias is that he was closer to Monty than anyone else except Sheena, and thus he believes he knows better than anyone else what's best for RWBY. But that's something he can't prove is correct, because he doesn't know what Miles, Kerry, or Gray know about the show's lore and future.
 
Carrying Monty's torch for this show doesn't mean adhering to every single thing Monty ever said about it as if it's gospel from on high. It means carrying forward the spirit of Monty's vision, and understanding that some things aren't going to work, and will need to be changed. Some things Monty didn't think of will have to be added, because they enhance the world and its stories. Not everything Monty comes up with is a good idea, and putting in something that doesn't work just because Monty's the one who came up with it is a bad idea.
 
RWBY has grown into Rooster Teeth's biggest project, and in order to keep that many people working productively, things need to be standardized. Miles and Kerry are storytellers, and understand that in order to tell a good story, sometimes you have to murder your darlings. RWBY volume 3 was bigger in every way than volumes 1 and 2 were, and in order to bring it together, RT had to adapt. Shane wasn't willing to do that.
 
That is not moving forward; it's clinging to the past.
 
The simple fact is that Rooster Teeth will do what's best for Rooster Teeth. What's best for Rooster Teeth is to keep the fans happy, so that they buy things. You don't keep the fans happy by sabotaging your flagship program. Whatever Rooster Teeth is doing behind the scenes of RWBY, you can be confident it's what they believe is best for the show, because doing what's best for the show is how you get a superior product.
 
It's evident that Shane disagreed with the direction Rooster Teeth were taking the show. He was resistant to change, to the point of self-sabotage. He made bad decisions in both his professional and personal life, and became enough of a problem that RT weren't comfortable keeping him on the team any more. Sometimes, that's how business works. It's unfortunate, but it happens every day, all over the world. It doesn't mean that either of them is necessarily right or wrong, it just means they aren't compatible any more. And that's life.

 

:(

 

And while DiMono's post is really well done, it's not another side to the story. He's not an RT employee or anything, just a concerned fan who wanted to voice his opinion on the subject.

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VCR_CAT Apprentice

VCR_CAT

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Already read it. It's a guy giving his personal opinion on an aspect of the matter that has nothing to do with the concerns I exposed.

 

Well, if we're talking volume 3, what it may have lacked in fight scene quality it more than made for in superior writing and characterization.

 

In all honesty, compared to the previous volumes, I would much rather take a well-written story with poor fightscenes over the previous volumes.

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Shradow Newbie

Shradow

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Agreed. The fight scenes may have been a larger factor in Volumes 1 & 2, and I'd consider the poorer fight scenes in 3 an overall detriment to it, if not for what 3 was in other aspects that still made it better than the previous volumes.

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Timeskipper Newbie

Timeskipper

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Well, if we're talking volume 3, what it may have lacked in fight scene quality it more than made for in superior writing and characterization.

 

In all honesty, compared to the previous volumes, I would much rather take a well-written story with poor fightscenes over the previous volumes.

I'd agree with you IF we were not talking about RWBY. Fight scenes are a vital part of the show. I do agree that Volume 3 was indeed much better in terms of writing and plot, but it's still RWBY. The awesome fight scenes are the lifeblood of the franchise.
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Jake the Sage Rookie

Jake the Sage

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The awesome fight scenes are the lifeblood of the franchise.

No, they're the hook. The fight scenes are meant to be flashy and impressive, but not what the show is to be focused on. You're supposed to see the fighting and get interested enough to watch the show. From there the story and characters are what's supposed to be the focus.

 

Take Avatar: The Last Airbender. It had amazing fights in it, but what do most fans remember and think fondly of?

The answer is either the characters or the story.

 

Characters

Story

Aesthetics (look and sound )

 

In that order, the most important things about telling a good story. You can survive a bad, granted not a horrible once, but a bad appearance or sound design as long as your story and or characters are good.

 

But you CANNOT survive if you have either a nonsense story and or characters you don't care about, yet pretty visuals and or music.

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Timeskipper Newbie

Timeskipper

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Avatar was pretty darn impressive from its first episodes in all of these aspects, but it was pretty well balanced. The fight scenes were much shorter.

On the other hand, fight scenes are what makes RWBY unique. Take those away, and right now it's merely an "okay" show. The story is getting better, and the characters may do so in the future, but right now the fighting is just as important as the story, if not more.

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The Amazing Avian Newbie

The Amazing Avian

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To be fair, Redline is literally just Hype: The Movie. It doesn't pretend to be about anything and the whole thing is an excuse plot to blow your mind with its incredibly amazing visuals. That's the only reason to even watch the movie and if you're looking for any deeper meaning you're going to be disappointed.

 

Dead Fantasy is another. The whole point of Dead Fantasy was because Monty wanted to make something cool. It got a lot of views just because it was cool. Maybe for an actual series this approach wouldn't work, but honestly if fight scenes are really good, a lot of people won't care enough about the plot to not watch it.

 

Ignoring all that, who says the plot needs to suffer for fight scenes to be better?

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Timeskipper Newbie

Timeskipper

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To be fair, Redline is literally just Hype: The Movie. It doesn't pretend to be about anything and the whole thing is an excuse plot to blow your mind with its incredibly amazing visuals. That's the only reason to even watch the movie and if you're looking for any deeper meaning you're going to be disappointed.

 

Dead Fantasy is another. The whole point of Dead Fantasy was because Monty wanted to make something cool. It got a lot of views just because it was cool. Maybe for an actual series this approach wouldn't work, but honestly if fight scenes are really good, a lot of people won't care enough about the plot to not watch it.

 

Ignoring all that, who says the plot needs to suffer for fight scenes to be better?

I wasn't. My argument was that, while the plot has definitely improved lately, and it's probably because Miles and Kerry are starting to get the hang of writing, losing Monty and Shane, and switching to a model that favors deadlines and productivity over care and creativity might hurt the quality of fight scenes.

I'm not saying that's GOING to happen, but that it COULD happen.

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